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Old 01-05-2020, 09:10 PM   #1
AussieInSeattle
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Default CALB FI Series LiFePo4 Batteries?

Anyone used the aluminum encased LiFePo4 prismatic batteries for a build? something like these?:
https://www.evwest.com/catalog/produ...roducts_id=301

Spec sheet above is 144Amps continuous and 288A for 30 seconds and 576A for 10 seconds - I'm assuming that will be enough for an Admiral A2/AllTrax500 setup or am I pushing it?

I know a 7 or 14 Leaf Gen 2 setup will be cheaper but I want to go with new batteries instead of used and LiFePo4 instead of Li-ion.

Thanks in advance,
Matt




Further background of my build: I've done a ton of reading/lurking in the forums gathering all the info for planning a Lithium build of a 2011 Precedent. My current 6x8v setup is almost dead. Cart has an AllTrax XCT500-IQ and Admiral A2 motor on 205-30/12 tires. It's a 1 mile return drive to my golf course and ~5.5 miles to get a round in so something around 72Ah should be good enough for my needs (1-2 rounds). I've read most of the leaf build threads and will likely go the Chargery BMS/Charger and Gigavac route that some have started to do but modelled off the Zeva setups I've read about.
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Old 01-06-2020, 08:59 PM   #2
bronsonj
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Default Re: CALB FI Series LiFePo4 Batteries?

So are you going with 16 cells in series? If you charge to 3.4vpc that'd be 54.4v down to 2.8vpc at 44.8V for the pack, that's pretty similar to the V on a 14S Leaf pack. Although I am no LiFePo4 expert so I'm just guessing on where you'd have your cutoff parameters.

The 205-30/12 are (on paper) actually a little smaller OD than stock golf cart tires, so you shouldn't be seeing anywhere near 500 amps unless you are trying to pop wheelies or pull Christmas Floats. So with that said these cells look like they'd work so long as you have the BMS figured out to go with.
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Old 01-07-2020, 09:54 AM   #3
BBBHC
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Default Re: CALB FI Series LiFePo4 Batteries?

Maybe member Ribfeast might be able to give you some insight. Here is a thread he started: http://www.buggiesgonewild.com/membe...highlight=calb
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Old 01-07-2020, 11:38 PM   #4
AussieInSeattle
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Default Re: CALB FI Series LiFePo4 Batteries?

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Originally Posted by BBBHC View Post
Maybe member Ribfeast might be able to give you some insight. Here is a thread he started: http://www.buggiesgonewild.com/membe...highlight=calb
Thanks for the find - guess I didnt go far enough down the list of search results for the term CALB :-)
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Old 01-07-2020, 11:54 PM   #5
AussieInSeattle
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Default Re: CALB FI Series LiFePo4 Batteries?

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Originally Posted by bronsonj View Post
So are you going with 16 cells in series? If you charge to 3.4vpc that'd be 54.4v down to 2.8vpc at 44.8V for the pack, that's pretty similar to the V on a 14S Leaf pack. Although I am no LiFePo4 expert so I'm just guessing on where you'd have your cutoff parameters.

The 205-30/12 are (on paper) actually a little smaller OD than stock golf cart tires, so you shouldn't be seeing anywhere near 500 amps unless you are trying to pop wheelies or pull Christmas Floats. So with that said these cells look like they'd work so long as you have the BMS figured out to go with.
Yep a 16 cell setup - My understanding is that with LiFePO4 it is "safer" to use more of the voltage range but you get reduced lifespan. I'd estimate I'll only cycle it around 30 times per year so it should outlive me :-). Spec sheets say 100% charge is 3.65 volts which would get me to 58.4 which I think is similar to the Leaf packs. Could also add a 17th cell which would max me out to the 62 volt limit of my controller. I'd then need the 24T Chargery BMS which is +$100 over the 16T.

There was a recent Battleborn interview on YouTube (by Will Prowse) with their CEO where he said it was fine to run their packs from 100%-0%, just dont store them at 0% - they have a BMS built in though, so "consumer 0%" might actually be 10%+ of battery remaining. Lots of interesting stuff in that interview.

Thanks also for the insights on tire size - didnt realize my smaller wheels would result in less amp draw but guess that makes sense.
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Old 01-09-2020, 11:13 AM   #6
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Default Re: CALB FI Series LiFePo4 Batteries?

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Originally Posted by AussieInSeattle View Post
didnt realize my smaller wheels would result in less amp draw but guess that makes sense.
When changing the wheel/tire size it affects the gear ratio. It's just easier to turn a small wheel vs a big one. You'll have make more torque at the same amp draw (or the other way is you will need fewer amps to make the same torque).
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Old 01-23-2020, 10:53 AM   #7
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Default Re: CALB FI Series LiFePo4 Batteries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieInSeattle View Post
Yep a 16 cell setup - My understanding is that with LiFePO4 it is "safer" to use more of the voltage range but you get reduced lifespan. I'd estimate I'll only cycle it around 30 times per year so it should outlive me :-). Spec sheets say 100% charge is 3.65 volts which would get me to 58.4 which I think is similar to the Leaf packs. Could also add a 17th cell which would max me out to the 62 volt limit of my controller. I'd then need the 24T Chargery BMS which is +$100 over the 16T.

There was a recent Battleborn interview on YouTube (by Will Prowse) with their CEO where he said it was fine to run their packs from 100%-0%, just dont store them at 0% - they have a BMS built in though, so "consumer 0%" might actually be 10%+ of battery remaining. Lots of interesting stuff in that interview.

Thanks also for the insights on tire size - didnt realize my smaller wheels would result in less amp draw but guess that makes sense.
Not familiar with CALB FI cells specifically, but if you like the advantages of LifePo4 but you don't want to build your own pack, and want to spend LESS than a 14 module Leaf build would cost (and save the several days of work involved in finding all the parts and putting it together) take a look at the LifePo4 units currently available from a company called "RoyPow". I recently put one in my Onward and (so far) I'm very impressed.

Like you, I was leery of used battery cells - with their years of unknown history and cycle / use conditions - and also preferred LifePo4 chemistry due to safety and other advantages.

I had assumed there wasn't really anything LifePo4 out there that was within my ability to put together, other than abandoning LifePo4 and going with a traditional Li-on Leaf build, until I came across this.

Not sure where you read that LifePo4 had less cycle life, but as I understand it it's generally accepted that it is more - not less - than traditional Lithium Ion chemistry. I know Eve's (parent company of RoyPow and maker of the cells) data, with 100% DOD, shows #cycles at crazy high numbers. If that is accurate (and other LifePo4 mfgs. cell data shows similar data), you can probably rest easy knowing something else related to your cart will break or give out before the cell chemistry. A capacitor on a BMS board going out or bad solder joint developing somewhere due to vibration would be a more likely cause of failure IMO. I think that's probably true of any LiOn chemistry though, but with used batteries you really have no idea what to expect in terms of cycle life. There is the issue of chronological life / age to consider also with any chemistry, and some of the Leaf modules I've seen being used are from as far back as 2012 (already 8 years old!) IIRC. The nice thing is that folks seem to be getting great results from these builds when properly done, so that bodes well for Lithium lifespan expectations in general I think.

I ultimately came to the conclusion that for me, a traditional Li-On Leaf pack had essentially no room for error on the part of the BMS, charger, or user, and that it would be something you had to stay on top of continually. With LifePo4, I feel like there is more room for error on the part of those things, and significantly less likelihood of the pack failing in some way and taking my home (or worse) with it should any one of those things fall down on the job.

http://www.buggiesgonewild.com/lithi...-exploded.html

There is always an explanation for why a Lithium pack failed or caught fire, and frankly the explanations don't do a lot to assuage my concerns. It still remains that when some unexpected thing happens, bad resultant things can happen. And LifePo4 isn't exempt from that by any means (nor is FLA for that matter), but I feel the safety margin is considerably wider though; especially since this pack is in an airtight, ip rated steel case, which is something I haven't seen done with any of the Leaf projects, and makes me feel better about containment in the event of a problem.

The pack is a 16s arrangement and actually came with a mounting plate for my specific cart, an aluminum cased charger that looks to be a cut above most of the Amazon chargers out there, and a RS485-connected SOC meter. There was an adapter for the charger to use my existing Club Car charge inlet as well.

Install time was less than 2 hours, but mounting the SOC meter to use the existing dash cutout took me probably another 45 minutes at a later date. Still - no fabrication time, and a lazy-paced 2-3 hour job.

There are 56ah, 105ah, and 160ah versions apparently available - I went with a 105ah. A dealer in my area has installed maybe 6 of these previously for customers (without issue), and ordered another 6 recently - 1 of which I purchased.

RoyPow 51v 105ah LifePo4 steel-cased pack:
http://www.roypowtech.com/battery_show.aspx?id=358

Eve energy LifePo4 105ah cell data:
http://www.dcmax.com.tw/LF105(3.2V105Ah).pdf
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Old 01-23-2020, 11:38 AM   #8
AussieInSeattle
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Default Re: CALB FI Series LiFePo4 Batteries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fstop View Post
Not familiar with CALB FI cells specifically, but if you like the advantages of LifePo4 but you don't want to build your own pack, and want to spend LESS than a 14 module Leaf build would cost (and save the several days of work involved in finding all the parts and putting it together) take a look at the LifePo4 units currently available from a company called "RoyPow". I recently put one in my Onward and (so far) I'm very impressed.
Thanks fstop - very detailed - thanks for sharing! what controller/motor setup are you using? According to the spec sheet from RoyPow the max discharge of their setup is 1C/105Amps but the battery specs indicate that up to 3C/315Amps is fine down to 40% SOC @ 55F. Any idea if they are running a Gigavac type of setup for cutoff or due to the 105Amp max they just run a >105Amp BMS instead? And of course, what is the cost for the convenience of a pre-built system? :-)
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Old 01-23-2020, 03:10 PM   #9
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Default Re: CALB FI Series LiFePo4 Batteries?

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Originally Posted by AussieInSeattle View Post
Thanks fstop - very detailed - thanks for sharing! what controller/motor setup are you using? According to the spec sheet from RoyPow the max discharge of their setup is 1C/105Amps but the battery specs indicate that up to 3C/315Amps is fine down to 40% SOC @ 55F. Any idea if they are running a Gigavac type of setup for cutoff or due to the 105Amp max they just run a >105Amp BMS instead? And of course, what is the cost for the convenience of a pre-built system? :-)
I'm using a Navitas 5kw AC system (their AC motor and corresponding 600amp controller).

$1,800 was my total cost for the 105ah system with mounting bracket, hardware, charger and club car pigtail adapter, battery unit and SOC meter. All of this came from RoyPow - the dealer didn't cobble parts together. Came in a sturdy wooden crate, and all the accessories were labeled and individually boxed.

Might want to look here:
http://www.buggiesgonewild.com/all-t...ml#post1682988

The discharge numbers are pretty impressive if you look at the cell specs, and the pack specs are very conservative. RoyPow tech information emailed to me states internal over-discharge protection will kick in if there is a load greater than 200amps continuing for more than 10 seconds before needing to be reset (electronic push-for-3-seconds button on the pack itself).

My Navitas can log battery amp draw -vs- speed, voltage, etc... to an app on my phone and at full acceleration from a stop I'm only seeing peak amp draws of about 220 amps, and that's for 1, maybe 2 seconds max.
I've got 23" tires also, which will increase acceleration amp draw -vs- smaller ones. At top speed (35mph) I'm seeing around 135 amps maybe. Voltage drop under acceleration or top speed is almost nil - pretty amazing.
Keep in mind I've got pretty flat topography and am on paved roads / paths. I'll throw in also that since changing over to this battery, I haven't had any other occupants in the cart, so amp draws would be higher if that were the case. I weighed everything I took out of the cart (FLA batteries, cables, hold downs, etc..) and everything I put back in and the net weight loss was 315lbs so that cuts down on amp draw in a major way right there.

I'm not familiar with the Gigavac, but I think what they (RoyPow) are using is possibly solid state (no clicks when I switch the pack on or off with the push-hold power button, and I've never had any protection cut out under any of my testing or use). Maybe it is a relay type circuit, and it is NC so you only hear a click if it activates and disconnects, but I can't be sure.

According to their communications with me there are over-charge (total pack V>56.8 or any cell V>3.7), temperature (65c), and over-discharge protections (SOC meter begins to beep at 20% - which I haven't seen yet - and further continued discharge will cause battery to shut down if voltage is too low. Unspecified to me what that point is, but stated battery can be turned back on so I assume that you may hit that if voltage drop during motor use dips below that point and you could re-start the battery and "limp" home slowly to keep voltage from dipping or charge in place. I don't intend to get anywhere near that low on SOC though.
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Old 01-23-2020, 10:35 PM   #10
AussieInSeattle
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Default Re: CALB FI Series LiFePo4 Batteries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fstop View Post
I'm using a Navitas 5kw AC system (their AC motor and corresponding 600amp controller).

$1,800 was my total cost for the 105ah system with mounting bracket, hardware, charger and club car pigtail adapter, battery unit and SOC meter. All of this came from RoyPow - the dealer didn't cobble parts together. Came in a sturdy wooden crate, and all the accessories were labeled and individually boxed.

Might want to look here:
http://www.buggiesgonewild.com/all-t...ml#post1682988

The discharge numbers are pretty impressive if you look at the cell specs, and the pack specs are very conservative. RoyPow tech information emailed to me states internal over-discharge protection will kick in if there is a load greater than 200amps continuing for more than 10 seconds before needing to be reset (electronic push-for-3-seconds button on the pack itself).

My Navitas can log battery amp draw -vs- speed, voltage, etc... to an app on my phone and at full acceleration from a stop I'm only seeing peak amp draws of about 220 amps, and that's for 1, maybe 2 seconds max.
I've got 23" tires also, which will increase acceleration amp draw -vs- smaller ones. At top speed (35mph) I'm seeing around 135 amps maybe. Voltage drop under acceleration or top speed is almost nil - pretty amazing.
Keep in mind I've got pretty flat topography and am on paved roads / paths. I'll throw in also that since changing over to this battery, I haven't had any other occupants in the cart, so amp draws would be higher if that were the case. I weighed everything I took out of the cart (FLA batteries, cables, hold downs, etc..) and everything I put back in and the net weight loss was 315lbs so that cuts down on amp draw in a major way right there.

I'm not familiar with the Gigavac, but I think what they (RoyPow) are using is possibly solid state (no clicks when I switch the pack on or off with the push-hold power button, and I've never had any protection cut out under any of my testing or use). Maybe it is a relay type circuit, and it is NC so you only hear a click if it activates and disconnects, but I can't be sure.

According to their communications with me there are over-charge (total pack V>56.8 or any cell V>3.7), temperature (65c), and over-discharge protections (SOC meter begins to beep at 20% - which I haven't seen yet - and further continued discharge will cause battery to shut down if voltage is too low. Unspecified to me what that point is, but stated battery can be turned back on so I assume that you may hit that if voltage drop during motor use dips below that point and you could re-start the battery and "limp" home slowly to keep voltage from dipping or charge in place. I don't intend to get anywhere near that low on SOC though.
Thanks fstop. Sounds like a good deal for $1800. Was not expecting it to handle increased amp draw. That price is about 300-400 more than the components you'd need to put together yourself from my research which is reasonable (to me)

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