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Old 01-12-2020, 09:48 AM   #21
fstop
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Default Re: Anyone tried RoyPow lithium kit yet?

Assuming that the specs that @MCJEFE posted in another thread are correct (I looked them up too and I think he is correct in assuming these are the cells in the 105ah RoyPow pack) then the attached data is pretty impressive (the way I'm reading it anyway...) regarding short term current delivery.

To summarize my reading of it, it appears that:

The 30 second permissible (their terminology) max discharge rates (between 25c and 55c battery temps) are between 525 amps (if you are 75% SOC or above, and 315 amps (if you are still at 30% SOC or above). Below 30% SOC the rates drop, as expected, but are still over 200 amps at 20% SOC and I don't think anybody on the forum is going to run down below that (or even to that) point.

I'm sure somebody has a cart use profile where they draw massive amounts of current on a frequent and prolonged basis (pulling a trailer uphill with 27" tires, or a 6 passenger cart with large tires and long inclines etc...) but for many uses (certainly mine) these numbers are more than sufficient - hard acceleration from a dead stop only hits high current spikes for a second, maybe 2 tops then ramps down pretty quickly. At least from my Navitas data of full acceleration runs I've done anyway.
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Old 01-13-2020, 01:03 PM   #22
MCJEFE
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Default Re: Anyone tried RoyPow lithium kit yet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidgolfer View Post
They haven't shipped it yet but they are supposed to ship it to me. I have been surprised at how hard it is to get someone to sell me one of these.

After messaging several dealers asking for prices and getting little or no response I finally just called Roypow they referred me to a dealer. If they send it to me I will message you details.

Think someone on this site is a dealer also but he never would reply with shipping costs.[emoji107]
I was looking into them for my 80 yr old Dad in AZ.

For myself, for the time being I will continue to build Leaf packs and closely watch this product for possible future use myself. I think that it might be an option for someone who can't build their own pack.

When I was doing my research I was asking questions that folks couldn't answer and eventually was put in contact with "Kevin" who is responsible for RoyPow West Coast sales. I believe he said that this was RoyPow's first time for sales offices in the US but they had the first container of product arrive in June and they were in the process of getting the 3 main wholesale offices set up and finding dealers. He also mentioned that they had already sold an additional 2 containers of product. I think that they expected to be primarily wholesaling through dealers and are getting surprised by the amount of people like us who are not wanting to wait for the dealer network and want to purchase directly from their office. One thing that I did see was that this wasn't some guys assembling batteries in their garage using unnamed components and selling them on the internet, it's a legit commercial manufacturer and even makes their own lithium cells and modules.

I couldn't find anything negative about the company, their cells or products...

If you have issues or questions here's the points of contact I came up with:

Kevin was the most responsive.

West Coast Sales:

Kui Tian (Kevin)*
ROYPOW (USA) TECHNOLOGY INC
Cel: +1 480-546-2954
Email:*kevin.tian@roypowusa.com
http://www.roypowtech.com*
http://en.evebattery.com


East Coast sales:
Lakeland Fl.
Gordon Huang
407-325-0844 (I noticed that its same as the TX office...)

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
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Old 01-13-2020, 01:51 PM   #23
fstop
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Default Re: Anyone tried RoyPow lithium kit yet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MCJEFE View Post
I was looking into them for my 80 yr old Dad in AZ.

For myself, for the time being I will continue to build Leaf packs and closely watch this product for possible future use myself. I think that it might be an option for someone who can't build their own pack.

When I was doing my research I was asking questions that folks couldn't answer and eventually was put in contact with "Kevin" who is responsible for RoyPow West Coast sales. I believe he said that this was RoyPow's first time for sales offices in the US but they had the first container of product arrive in June and they were in the process of getting the 3 main wholesale offices set up and finding dealers. He also mentioned that they had already sold an additional 2 containers of product. I think that they expected to be primarily wholesaling through dealers and are getting surprised by the amount of people like us who are not wanting to wait for the dealer network and want to purchase directly from their office. One thing that I did see was that this wasn't some guys assembling batteries in their garage using unnamed components and selling them on the internet, it's a legit commercial manufacturer and even makes their own lithium cells and modules.

I couldn't find anything negative about the company, their cells or products...

If you have issues or questions here's the points of contact I came up with:

Kevin was the most responsive.

West Coast Sales:

Kui Tian (Kevin)*
ROYPOW (USA) TECHNOLOGY INC
Cel: +1 480-546-2954
Email:*kevin.tian@roypowusa.com
http://www.roypowtech.com*
http://en.evebattery.com


East Coast sales:
Lakeland Fl.
Gordon Huang
407-325-0844 (I noticed that its same as the TX office...)

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Thanks for that contact info - I'd been in contact with "Steve", who is on the east coast and was in my area a few weeks ago while visiting dealers. He actually stopped by my office but I happened to be out unfortunately.

In my case, I could build a Leaf pack, and in fact already have the BMS and some other parts I was putting together for the build.

What I'm increasingly focused on however is the safety and long term reliability of the Leaf packs and their associated BMS and saftey net features.

The more I read, the more it becomes apparent that LifePo4 cells are inherently safer. They can tolerate some pretty significant abuse w/out either significant damage to themselves or (in the case of very serious abuse) self-destruction and potential associated damage to your home - or worse.

My 2nd concern (after safety / long term reliability) with the used Leaf cells is the primary advantage LiOn chemistry has over LifePo4 - energy density. With the used Leaf cells, an unknown amount of that advantage has already been lost (could be 10%, could be 100% - or even more - of any initial advantage). Couple that with reduced cycle life (and chronological lifespan) of LiOn chemistry and it becomes questionable (to me, anyway) if there is any advantage at all to going with a Leaf pack beyond the additional 6.5 volt pack voltage increase. That would be nice though, no doubt about it.

One of the scenarios on the forum that bothered me was a member (can't remember who, or which build thread, but he was very capable WRT electronics) who built a beautiful Leaf pack w/ great workmanship and attention to detail (and safety - each of the individual cells was fused IIRC) and it worked great until he happened to not use his cart for a month or so and when he did go to use it, the pack had discharged too low (BMS apparently failed - Zeva IIRC...) and most of the modules were toast. I was thinking lucky there wasn't possibly a fire too... good thing failure didn't happen during charge cycle maybe).

Anyway, I tend to go from one project to the next, so when I get done with the GC mods, whatever I'm focused on in 6 months or a year or 3 years won't have me hovering over the GC with a VOM checking things a few times a week. I just don't have 100% faith (esp. in the long term) in the parts quality, engineering and build quality of the BMS that is the glue of a DIY pack. Not to say a professionally engineered and manufactured pack couldn't fail, but at least it is sealed in a steel case, is chemically much less likely to 'splode and if it just fails, hopefully the 5 year warranty is actionable.

But, all that aside, how it performs in my lightly modded cart is where the proof will be for me personally - I can live w/out the last 10% acceleration or WOT speed potential -vs- a DIY Leaf pack in a trade for all the things mentioned above - but if that performance gap is much larger than that, it might be tough to go with the LifePo4.

I should have this pack (105AH version) installed within a week, and will report back my findings.
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Old 01-14-2020, 03:05 PM   #24
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Default Re: Anyone tried RoyPow lithium kit yet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fstop View Post
Thanks for that contact info - I'd been in contact with "Steve", who is on the east coast and was in my area a few weeks ago while visiting dealers. He actually stopped by my office but I happened to be out unfortunately.

In my case, I could build a Leaf pack, and in fact already have the BMS and some other parts I was putting together for the build.

What I'm increasingly focused on however is the safety and long term reliability of the Leaf packs and their associated BMS and saftey net features.

The more I read, the more it becomes apparent that LifePo4 cells are inherently safer. They can tolerate some pretty significant abuse w/out either significant damage to themselves or (in the case of very serious abuse) self-destruction and potential associated damage to your home - or worse.

My 2nd concern (after safety / long term reliability) with the used Leaf cells is the primary advantage LiOn chemistry has over LifePo4 - energy density. With the used Leaf cells, an unknown amount of that advantage has already been lost (could be 10%, could be 100% - or even more - of any initial advantage). Couple that with reduced cycle life (and chronological lifespan) of LiOn chemistry and it becomes questionable (to me, anyway) if there is any advantage at all to going with a Leaf pack beyond the additional 6.5 volt pack voltage increase. That would be nice though, no doubt about it.

One of the scenarios on the forum that bothered me was a member (can't remember who, or which build thread, but he was very capable WRT electronics) who built a beautiful Leaf pack w/ great workmanship and attention to detail (and safety - each of the individual cells was fused IIRC) and it worked great until he happened to not use his cart for a month or so and when he did go to use it, the pack had discharged too low (BMS apparently failed - Zeva IIRC...) and most of the modules were toast. I was thinking lucky there wasn't possibly a fire too... good thing failure didn't happen during charge cycle maybe).

Anyway, I tend to go from one project to the next, so when I get done with the GC mods, whatever I'm focused on in 6 months or a year or 3 years won't have me hovering over the GC with a VOM checking things a few times a week. I just don't have 100% faith (esp. in the long term) in the parts quality, engineering and build quality of the BMS that is the glue of a DIY pack. Not to say a professionally engineered and manufactured pack couldn't fail, but at least it is sealed in a steel case, is chemically much less likely to 'splode and if it just fails, hopefully the 5 year warranty is actionable.

But, all that aside, how it performs in my lightly modded cart is where the proof will be for me personally - I can live w/out the last 10% acceleration or WOT speed potential -vs- a DIY Leaf pack in a trade for all the things mentioned above - but if that performance gap is much larger than that, it might be tough to go with the LifePo4.

I should have this pack (105AH version) installed within a week, and will report back my findings.
Congrats on your purchase. What did it cost including the charger? I'm glad your trying them and really look forward to hearing long term how you like the pack. As I said before I hope this is a product that I might feel comfortable recommendating for folks not into the DIY thing.

I also share your concern that the Leaf cells we're using are getting older and will be getting harder to find low mileage donor vehicles. But for now the price is right for the DIY'er.

Luckily the prices on new lithium cells seem to keep dropping and are getting closer in price to the Leaf cells. Just a couple of years ago it would cost $3-4k just for 105Ah for the cells your getting in the complete S51105 pack.

Not that I am looking to debate. But I really don't know why your saying Lifepo4 is safer... you may want to check a few more sources.

Either type of cell can become damaged/ dangerous if it is ever taken beyond its upper or lower limits. Take a read through Battery University if you have a chance, though there's a lot of other resources out there.

I do feel for the member who unfortunately drained his pack, but he did so out of negligence and the end result would have been the see if he used Lifepo4. It's been commented on a number of times on BGW and the Zeva instructions even have a special note that the BMS has a minute drain when connected and monitoring the pack and should be disconnected for storage. From my observations it will loose around 1-1.5v from a 90ah pack per month or disconnect the connector and come back in 6 months and it will be nearly exactly where you left it (ideally around 50-60% charge). Store it correctly and no problem.

You may be pleasantly surprised when you get your new pack. I'm pretty sure the charge voltage for the pack with 16S1 with the EVE LF105 cells is 56.85v. I only charge my Leaf packs to 57.4 anyway.

Hmm... I may play around with some of their 140 ah cells for a limo cart.... ;)

When you get it can you please post lots of pictures. Even any pages of the manual that would be of interest to anyone wanting more info than what's on the website. Especially if it addresses the over current safeties.



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Old 01-14-2020, 05:44 PM   #25
fstop
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Default Re: Anyone tried RoyPow lithium kit yet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MCJEFE View Post
Congrats on your purchase. What did it cost including the charger? I'm glad your trying them and really look forward to hearing long term how you like the pack. As I said before I hope this is a product that I might feel comfortable recommendating for folks not into the DIY thing.

I also share your concern that the Leaf cells we're using are getting older and will be getting harder to find low mileage donor vehicles. But for now the price is right for the DIY'er.

Luckily the prices on new lithium cells seem to keep dropping and are getting closer in price to the Leaf cells. Just a couple of years ago it would cost $3-4k just for 105Ah for the cells your getting in the complete S51105 pack.

Not that I am looking to debate. But I really don't know why your saying Lifepo4 is safer... you may want to check a few more sources.

Either type of cell can become damaged/ dangerous if it is ever taken beyond its upper or lower limits. Take a read through Battery University if you have a chance, though there's a lot of other resources out there.

I do feel for the member who unfortunately drained his pack, but he did so out of negligence and the end result would have been the see if he used Lifepo4. It's been commented on a number of times on BGW and the Zeva instructions even have a special note that the BMS has a minute drain when connected and monitoring the pack and should be disconnected for storage. From my observations it will loose around 1-1.5v from a 90ah pack per month or disconnect the connector and come back in 6 months and it will be nearly exactly where you left it (ideally around 50-60% charge). Store it correctly and no problem.

You may be pleasantly surprised when you get your new pack. I'm pretty sure the charge voltage for the pack with 16S1 with the EVE LF105 cells is 56.85v. I only charge my Leaf packs to 57.4 anyway.

Hmm... I may play around with some of their 140 ah cells for a limo cart.... ;)

When you get it can you please post lots of pictures. Even any pages of the manual that would be of interest to anyone wanting more info than what's on the website. Especially if it addresses the over current safeties.



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I'm by no means implying I'm any sort of authority - far from it. Safety / resistance to abuse just tends to be more or less a recognized advantage of LifePo4 from all that I've read. Energy density is the strong suit for LiPo in general, and many other characteristics are very similar between the two chemistry variations.

I don't think the RoyPow pack is going to have a 100% SOC voltage of 56.85, but I did see where the charger voltage is listed in that range. I think it will have a lot to do with the safety factor they've built into what they are calling "fully charged" and what they are calling "empty" WRT the BMS in the unit, and the charger which apparently may communicate with it (temperature anyway). If it does have a full voltage of 56v I'll be very happy - I'm assuming closer to 52 though.

My total cost for the 105ah pack with mounting plates / hardware, the EVE charger and tax ended up being $1,800. My Leaf parts spreadsheet had my projected cost at $1,850 (including a smart / fast charger, which the RoyPow also has). That's assuming a fairly rudimentary mounting for the leaf pack - essentially no enclosure either. I can't do all that fantastic machine shop metal work you can, and don't really have a good source. If I did, it would add to that $1,850 for sure. I'm also not adding in anything for the projected 15+ hours I'd likely spend carefully putting it all together (or the 5+ hours I've probably spent researching how to do it properly and finding a source for all the needed parts). I"m going to guess I should have the RoyPow pack installed in 2 hours or so, w/out rushing anything, but we'll see.

I've managed to track down 2 people who have this pack installed - both interestingly using the Navitas 5kw AC conversion controller / motor combo that I've got, in the same carts. One individual wasn't really technically inclined and just said they "love it" and "haven't had any issues." The other was more into the ins and outs, and his impression was very favorable, and had not had any pack amp draw cut-outs or other issues. He mentioned he had not seen the pack drop below 50-51 volts during use, which is hard to imagine on a nominal 51/52v pack (so maybe you're right about pack voltage being higher), but I have a real-time meter in my dash in addition to the Navitas app which reports all parameters. I imagine the "kit" also comes with a SOC meter of some kind for the dash - but I don't know for sure.

I'm picking it up in the morning but won't have much time to play with it as I'll be out of town a few days, but may get it installed and be able to check a few things before I leave. I'll be able to get more detailed info next week.
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Old 01-15-2020, 08:07 AM   #26
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Default Re: Anyone tried RoyPow lithium kit yet?

Clearing out some space...

Weighed my actual batteries, hold-down hardware and battery cables - 414.2 Lbs. coming out. RoyPow is supposed to be 96lbs, but I'll weigh it before it goes in just to see.

The RoyPow will go in less than 1/2 of that space - hopefully by late today.
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Old 01-15-2020, 09:47 AM   #27
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Default Re: Anyone tried RoyPow lithium kit yet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fstop View Post
Clearing out some space...

Weighed my actual batteries, hold-down hardware and battery cables - 414.2 Lbs. coming out. RoyPow is supposed to be 96lbs, but I'll weigh it before it goes in just to see.

The RoyPow will go in less than 1/2 of that space - hopefully by late today.
Keep us updated. I’m hoping to get mine in the next week or so
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Old 01-15-2020, 02:32 PM   #28
fstop
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Default Re: Anyone tried RoyPow lithium kit yet?

All looks good so far...
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File Type: jpg onward roypower crate.jpg (286.8 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg onward roypow crate labels.jpg (201.9 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg onward roypow contents.jpg (236.4 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg onward roypow bracket and meter.jpg (165.5 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg onward roypow bracket detail.jpg (125.9 KB, 0 views)
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Old 01-15-2020, 02:35 PM   #29
fstop
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Default Re: Anyone tried RoyPow lithium kit yet?

Charger has an adapter so no new charge inlet is needed...

Also came with a SOC meter, which connects to RS485 port on battery (dealer wasn't aware of the meter).

Came 50% charged - perfect.
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File Type: jpg onward roypow charger w adapter.jpg (192.1 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg onward roypow chg label.jpg (179.5 KB, 0 views)
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Old 01-15-2020, 02:41 PM   #30
fstop
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Default Re: Anyone tried RoyPow lithium kit yet?

Bracket is straightforward - 4 through bolts through plastic battery tub bottom. I added larger fender washers on the outside bolts, and smaller washers up inside the center 2 bolts. Have to make sure the bolt positions will allow for washer and nylon locknuts to have enough clearance around them - no big deal. I would have liked to have had the pack about an inch closer to the front of the tub, but then the holes would have been on a plastic ridge or edge on the underside of the cart....

Pack itself has 4 welded on "L" brackets which the shorter bolts go through into the threaded bracket (photo in earlier post).

All hardware except the washers I mentioned is included.
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File Type: jpg onward battery tub RoyPow mtg plate.jpg (176.8 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg Onward battery tub RoyPow mtg plate 2.jpg (178.5 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg roypow mtg bkt done.jpg (155.1 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg onward roypow ctr bkt bolts.jpg (228.6 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg onward roypow outside bkt bolts.jpg (200.7 KB, 0 views)
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