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Old 09-26-2024, 02:53 AM   #1
TerribleToroTrev
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Default Toro workman md. Sumthin is fried

Well almost exactly a year from my first post about my toro workman md I have another issue arising from the same area as my first post. Great timing to because i im wxpecting to need my toro for branch clean up tomarrow after thisnhurricane comes through so hoping to figure the **** out vut anyways. Brown and white wire for rpm shutdown going to pedal switch had a bullet connector connection in there and it popped out a crack in the loom and contacted the frame. Shorted out. Fried something though. Now I can't figure out what's going on. Won't try to start. The obvious thing to try is replace that bullet connector i guess. When it fell out I did see smoke come off it but it didnt look burnt up at the end of anywhere visible on the wire i could see (maybe i should unsnake it from frame for conplete inspection) but. When i check continuity from there to the pedal switch on brown and white it tests good. Same with brown to key. Same with blue from solenoid to front of cart and green from solenoid to starter generator..just spit ballin here but couple ideas/questions. 1. Can wire test good for continuity and not look burnt up but still be burned up to where they don't transmit power or ground correctly? 2. I recently changed the carbon brushes in the starter generator. Could this short have possibly left burnt spots on the bottom of those that maybe be stopping my connection being longer and closer to contact now that i now need to sand off or sumthing? does it matter if solenoid posts got hooked up opposite of what they were? Didn't think the posts were charge specific on these things. All I know is i already pulled out my bag of spare parts from past diagnosis attempts and went to town. tryed to swap in a different pedal switch that I had acquired last year while trying to diagnose in my first post and no change. Tryed to swap a spare 6amp diode in i had for diagnosis purposes no change. Tryed to swap in a different solenoid no change. Tryed to swap in a different voltage regulator no change as well as a new one of the lil metal rpm shutdown blocks. Tryed to clean all wiring terminal ends and still no change even though wire is testing good. I'd be outside still trying to figure out how to press the gas pedal with a broom handle while using the multimeter to see if I had anything power wise at the starter or trying to change that bullet connector out but it's started raining so I guess it'll have to wait. But my only other suspicion would be bad keyswitch not moving the connection from brown just find that way less likely than a problem with the brown and white wire. Just hoping I don't have replace the whole brown and white wire and the problem is there near the end. My ocd won't let use another color lol have other colors but wanna keep the wiring as factory and understandable as possible. Wouldve tried the bullet termibals first but didnt have any til a bit ago and had all the other stuff on hand already lol Remind me if I am forgetting anything to check im starting to get pretty tired now. Cheers
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Old 09-26-2024, 08:08 AM   #2
JPonLKN
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Default Re: Toro workman md. Sumthin is fried

1. Can wire test good for continuity and not look burnt up but still be burned up to where they don't transmit power or ground correctly? Yes, if it has shorted to something else, there may still be continuity between the original start and end point, but you may now have continuity to one or both ends of whatever it shorted to as well.
2. I don't believe I understand what you are talking about here.

Maybe too late now, but you don't do diagnostics by swapping parts, and, definitely don't do it by swapping parts from other machines. You are almost guaranteed to introduce new issues making the diagnosis much harder. The process is to start at the battery, and move through the whole system in the path shown on the wiring diagram.

Since we don't know what condition you are dealing with, I will assume it doesn't do anything when you try to start the engine. We also don't know which engine option you have, I will assume the 16 hp since you say you have an RPM shutdown module. We also don't know if you have the optional "key-start kit (Optional). That being said, the big terminals on the solenoid are not polarity specific, provided all wires for each side stay together. In your case, you have the large Red hot from the battery and the small red from the voltage regulator on one side, and then the large red hot to the starter generator, and the smaller red to the fuse box on the other. Note, there is a 60 amp maxi fuse on that smaller line within the harness. It should be visible, but could be taped into the loom somewhere close to the solenoid. If those wires are correct, you should be able to use pliers with good insulated handles, to bridge the two large terminals on the solenoid and if wired correctly, starter generator should turn. If it does, you don't have an issue at your brushes or the wiring there. If it doesn't turn, you have a ground issue, or you buggered up the starter generator when you had it apart to replace brushes.

Once you know you have an operational starter generator, just work through the wiring diagram one component at a time. The wiring diagram tells you how each switch works and in what condition they are shown. The pedal switch has for terminals, two are one switch that is normally open and the other two are a separate switch that is normally closed. Push the pedal and they switch. Using a ohm meter, disconnect the harnesss, and you can verify that the switch still opens and closes those two switches when it is operated. They are separate switches within one switch body, so you have to test them separately. I suspect the labels for each terminal are on the back of the switch. If not, you can easily use the harness to determine with wire goes to which post to verify which pairs of terminals act together.

I am headed to work...but you can use that process to follow through the wiring diagram. Same with the ignition switch, the grounding circuit. The key switch appears to be in the Stop condition, so the brown wire only gets ground when the key is off. The brown and white wire gets its ground when the pedal is up, and should lose it when it is depressed.

To check to see if you have a short, disconnect the battery, and you can easily use your Ohm meter and test points on the positive side (red, blue) and negative side (Black, Brown, Brown/White) to see if you have continuity between them. If there is continuity, a component or wire is likely shorted.
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Old 10-04-2024, 04:23 PM   #3
TerribleToroTrev
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Default Re: Toro workman md. Sumthin is fried

ugh man thanks for the help. i fried alot of stuff though...through further exploration. I fried my horn button lol my starter generator shorted one of the field coils. so i swapped in an older one the previous owner has swapped out that tested good on that but swapped my new carbon brushes over from the newer but now bad one to it. melted my under dash ground block. once I replaced those I was back able to fire it up but now it wont shut off when i let off the pedal so i have a new pedal switch on the way just hoping its that and not that brown and white wire burned up too much because both the wire and the pedal switch seems to test good on continuity. But i dont really have any help to like try and probe something while i hit the gas or anything so kinda sucks. only other thign it coud be if maybe i accidently shorted the new rpm shutdown thing again already right? lol
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Old 10-05-2024, 02:16 PM   #4
TerribleToroTrev
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Default Re: Toro workman md. Sumthin is fried

is there a way to test the rpm shutdown modules im unaware of like a resistance range? a quick google so far im not seeing anything but the pedal switch came earlier and it didnt fix anything for me so im kinda thinking the brown and white wire is burned uo somewhere even though it has continuity but i wanna be sure that i didnt get a brand new bad one. being the one wire fell off the rpm shutdown and hit the frame though. im thinking even the original shutdown is probably good still even and its probably the wire.
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Old 10-06-2024, 06:32 AM   #5
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Default Re: Toro workman md. Sumthin is fried

I am sorry, but I am struggling to understand. The brown and brown/white wires follow through to ground in all cases. so unless one of those wires touched a positive wire, i dont see how you got smoke. Those two wires simply ground the module or coil to shut down the engine. The only reason those wires would stop the engine running is that they go to ground when not supposed to. I am struggling to follow your description of the actual issue you have here. As JP has already said. You need to follow the diagram and understand what is supposed to happen, and then find out what is not. Simply assuming something is bad and changing it will not solve your problem. Yes, it appears that you have the 16hp Twin engine, but the wiring is pretty much the same on both models. the differences are where the brown and brown/white terminate but they do the same job on both. I think you need to step back and either study the digram properly before diagnosing or get someone else to look at it before you end up with more damage. I apologise if I seem harsh, but we have seen the bad side of misunderstanding an electrical system. I will have another read through and see if I can spot something obvious for you to check, but you may need to undo all that you have changed already and start again.

Ok. One more thing. What is you apparant issue. we need to know what is actually happening, For example. Starter not cranking the engine over? Starter is cranking but engine not starting? Starters cranks, engine starts but will not shut off? Give us correct symptoms and we can help.

If the engine cranks but will not start its highly likely either the brown or brown/white wire is grounded or the shutoff module is faulty. Thats where i would start looking. Can you disconnect the wire that comes from the coils from the module, and if so, will it now start. The module is a simple timer to keep the engine running for a few seconds when you take your foot off the pedal to prevent backfires when you push the pedal again as far as I am aware, so unlikely to be your issue.
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Old 10-08-2024, 12:13 AM   #6
TerribleToroTrev
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Default Re: Toro workman md. Sumthin is fried

no its fine i understand fine. its running after i changed the starter generator just now when i let off the gas it wont shut off. pedal switch tests fine. just wanted to know if those rpm shut down are supposed to have a certain resistance range or something to verify theyre good. i get good continuity on brown and white too from rpm shutdown bullet connector to the pedal switch on brown and white which i was assuming was burned up somewhere where the wire loom is snaked through the frame so if it was burned up i just dont get why id have continuity but thats the wire that fell out of the wire loom disconnected from the bullet connector, hit the frame and started smoking. sadly i wont have any wire to try and replace that til after the hurricane hits and then maybe i wont even have this terrible toro anymore lol
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Old 10-08-2024, 02:18 AM   #7
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Default Re: Toro workman md. Sumthin is fried

OK. The Brown wire should shut down the engine by shorting out the coils when switched off and the brown/white shuts down the engine if rpm is below 1300 after lifting off the pedal. If neither of these events are happening, then it is unlikely the module is faulty as if it was shorted out, the engine would not start. Same with the pedal switch. The issue is more likely to be too fast idle speed or the wire from the module going into the engine is open circuit and not shorting out the coils. If you can remove this wire from the module and with the engine running, short it directly to ground and see if the engine stops. If not, the problem lies here, with that wire. If it does, there is 1 or more issues with the either the module or the wiring from the module back to the ignition switch and / or the pedal switch. In this case, find the brown wire at the pedal switch and ground it with a wire directly to the battery negative and do the same with the brown/white wire at the ignition switch. Let us know the results and we can continue with diagnosis. Each of these tests is to confirm that the engine does or does not shut off.

FYI, those modules shut down the engine only if the RPM is below 1300rpm. this prevents the engine backfiring when you slow down, then push the pedal to speed back up. It is not actually a timer as such as I said previously, Its just an easy way to describe it. If your engine is idling over 1300rpm, then the module will keep the engine running. Try disconnecting the wire from that module that connects to the coil wire and try shutting down the engine with the ignition switch.

If you wanted to, you could disconnect the two wires from the module and and connect them together as in the wiring diagram for the 11hp engine. this would effectively connect both the brown and brown/white directly to the other wire that goes to the coils. This should stop the engine both with the pedal and the keyswitch. You dont want to drive it much like that as it will backfire when you slow and speed up on the gas pedal.

Can you also confirm exactly which model Workman you have by giving me the serial number. This way I can confirm that my thoughts are correct and we have the correct wiring diagram. If I recall correctly, I helped you previosly and you have a Workman 2110 with serial number starting with 07273

I have a feeling that the wire to the coils is open circuit and that is why neither the pedal or the switch is shutting down the engine. Nothing else makes sense to me in this scenario, as if the module was fried open circuit, the switch would still shut the engine off if the wiring is all good.

I am curious as to how you are shutting the engine down at the moment
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Old 10-08-2024, 03:14 AM   #8
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Default Re: Toro workman md. Sumthin is fried

FYI.
Extract from the workshop manual regarding testing the module. There are no resistance tests on this device. ( just answering one of your questions! )

I believe I sent you a link to the service manual last time you had a similar issue.


RPM Shutdown Module (Workman 2100/2110) The RPM shutdown module allows the engine to continue running briefly after the accelerator pedal is released and the vehicle is decelerating. The module monitors engine speed at the engine stop switch terminal. Through the RPM shutdown module, the engine ignition system is not grounded until the engine speed has slowed to approximately 1300 RPM. By allowing the engine to continue running briefly during vehicle deceleration, better vehicle performance can be achieved.

Testing 1. Make sure that accelerator switch is working correctly and is adjusted properly (see Accelerator Switch).
2. Place drive system in the NEUTRAL position (see Operator s Manual)
3. Connect an ignition spark tester in series between spark plug and spark plug wire.
4. Start engine and monitor engine speed with a tachometer. Press the accelerator pedal to raise engine speed briefly and then release pedal while watching tachometer and spark tester. When engine speed decreases to approximately 1300 RPM, spark tester should register no spark and the engine should stop.
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Old 10-09-2024, 02:51 AM   #9
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Default Re: Toro workman md. Sumthin is fried

this is the right diagram ive been all through it now all the colors match up it just started raining here when i seen this so not trying to run out to look at the serial at the moment and using the key switch is working i just shut it off by turning the key switch off at the moment since letting off the pedal isnt killing it I just turn the key off as im idleing down and rolling into where i need to move it lol thats also another reason why i
i think brown and white is the problem since brown goes to key switch and brown and white doesnt ill find out i guess.after the hurricane is gone but just my luck, i get the problems no one else gets with like every vehicle or equipment i own i swear lol is wire more likely to burn up at the end where it arcs or somewhere center of the wire? i apprecite the info though. thats good info to know about the connecting brown and brown and white at the module
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Old 10-09-2024, 09:14 AM   #10
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Default Re: Toro workman md. Sumthin is fried

Our thoughts are with you guys over there. Lets hope things work out for you with the weather. We are watching the news feeds and see how bad it is from over here in the UK. Stay safe!

To be honest, the first thing I would test, is grounding the module directly where the module connects to the brown/white wire. The brown from the keyswitch works, so that proves the wire to the coils is good. If grounding the module connection kills the engine, then the problem is in the wiring or the switch. Then connecting the brown and brown white together will take the module out of the circuit. If the pedal switch now kills the engine, then it makes sense that the module is faulty. If it doesn't, the problem if likely further back in the circuit. The only other thing worth checking that always gets overlooked, is the black wire at the pedal switch should have continuity to ground at all times. If not, it will not ground the brown white wire when the pedal is up.
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