New Icon with Lithium

[Theorangeman]

Is there any option of buying a new Icon with a lithium battery? If so, how much would this run? I was considering buying a new CC Onward with Lithium, but it jumped the price up around 3K if I remember correctly. I'm not doing that. It might make more sense just to go with the regular batteries and then upgrade 2-3 years down the road. Any thoughts? Also, I'm not handy at all so any battery upgrade would have to be done at the dealer.

[ATrain]

Originally Posted by Theorangeman

Is there any option of buying a new Icon with a lithium battery? If so, how much would this run? I was considering buying a new CC Onward with Lithium, but it jumped the price up around 3K if I remember correctly. I'm not doing that. It might make more sense just to go with the regular batteries and then upgrade 2-3 years down the road. Any thoughts? Also, I'm not handy at all so any battery upgrade would have to be done at the dealer.

Very few carts come with lithium from the factory, it's usually a dealer add-on at the customer request. I've researched lithium pretty extensively and it's essentially an emerging technology for golf carts.

It is expensive! Right now, prices I've seen are $2500-2700'ish (RoyPow installed) to swap out the batteries down the road.

I'd do exactly what you suggested. Just get either the regular trojan's or maybe upgrade to sealed AGM batteries and then in a few years when the batteries start crapping out, look to upgrade to lithium then and see if prices come down and quality has gone up.

There are definitely issues with lithium packs now. I've been looking to build my own, but there's so much trash out there and quality stuff ends up being a fortune unless you buy in bulk ($1million+).

Building your own though isn't terribly complicated and it ends up being cheaper than buying one. It's just getting a bunch of cells (either prismatic or cylinder), hooking them up in an enclosure, and connecting a BMS. There are heat/venting considerations, how you connect the cells, etc but nothing crazy complex...but if you're not handy at all it's probably over your head lol.

I wouldn't try and force lithium when it's not really there for golf carts in a super reliable way in my opinion, unless you're willing to pay the $2700+ and possibly have multiple dealer visits until things iron out.

[CartsRFun]

Hey orangeman..

Lithium batteries may be light...apparently offer longer life spans...

The one thing lithiums don't have as of yet is range...from what
factory lithium carts are ranging about 18 maybe as far as 36 holes of golf before needing charging..

My I40 with Crown 8 x 6 volt 260 ah agms are very long ranged...
Looking through my log found a 28.8 mile range where my agm battery
pack started at 53.4 v and ended with 50.4 v. which according to the
Crown agm voltage chart 50.16 v is 75% soc. So 50.4 v would still be
a bit higher...

All this with numerous stop signs about every 300' or so and some hills.

It seems as though my I40 could have gone another 12 - 15 miles before
getting into the 50% soc left in the 48 v pack..I don't think
lithium would give this kind of range...one day perhaps.

Agms give good service without the hassle of maintenance...

Solid state batteries are on the way ...and far and away better than lithium
without the stability problems of lithium...

Hope this helps

Best wishes

[Theorangeman]

This is great info - thanks! Sounds like I'll just stick with the batteries that come with the cart and upgrade later.

[fstop]

Originally Posted by CartsRFun

The one thing lithiums don't have as of yet is range...from what
factory lithium carts are ranging about 18 maybe as far as 36 holes of golf before needing charging..

My I40 with Crown 8 x 6 volt 260 ah agms are very long ranged...
Looking through my log found a 28.8 mile range where my agm battery
pack started at 53.4 v and ended with 50.4 v. which according to the
Crown agm voltage chart 50.16 v is 75% soc. So 50.4 v would still be
a bit higher...

Not sure what the stock cart range is exactly, but EZGO offers several capacities in their lithium lineup from what I understand - I'm sure the cheapest ones have less range, maybe as low as what you are saying. I think Club Car only offers one size.

One thing to remember about lithium is that you can charge much quicker, so range in many cases can be less important.

I wouldn't consider a stock lithium option though, at least from Club Car or EZGO.

I saw one of the chinese carts like the Icon locally that had a RoyPow 105ah battery installed from the manufacturer (had a different logo on the battery), and I know from careful testing I got 44 miles on a charge with that battery (105ah RoyPow) in my Onward, and I had a higher performance motor / controller than the Icon carts have, so range would be at least a little more using that battery in an Icon.

I currently see 75 miles / charge on my 120AH 72v Lifepo4 lithium (still same Onward, 5KW Navitas), when used at speeds in the Icon's range. Higher speeds drop range some, and reducing speeds to 20 or so boost it above 80 miles. This is while keeping the SOC well above the 2.5v / cell threshold.

My 21A charger puts in ~14 miles of range for each hour it is charging, so you don't need long periods of charging very often.

If I were looking at new carts I'd consider going with the LA batteries and working a deal with the dealer where he'd buy them and the charger back / give you a credit and go with a 100AH or maybe greater 48v pack, or better yet a 72v pack if your cart / controller can deal with it. When I bought my RoyPow, it was quite a bit cheaper than the numbers quoted, but maybe they have gone up - not sure. Extreme Team offers a good option as well. There are others also.

[CartsRFun]

Well fstop...

If people are willling to pay the big $$$$ for the 72v higher capacity
lithiums to get the range then ok good for them....

Hopefully the lithium battery manufacturers will still be around 7-10 years
from now to care for their customer's needs...

The bang for buck regarding range, reliability, and freedom from maintenance
are agms. In my case my Crown 6CRV 260 ah batteries answer this
call handsomely....no need for lithium....

Solid state is on the horizon....

Best wishes..
Happy cartin'

[fstop]

Originally Posted by CartsRFun

Well fstop...

If people are willling to pay the big $$$$ for the 72v higher capacity
lithiums to get the range then ok good for them....

Hopefully the lithium battery manufacturers will still be around 7-10 years
from now to care for their customer's needs...

The bang for buck regarding range, reliability, and freedom from maintenance
are agms. In my case my Crown 6CRV 260 ah batteries answer this
call handsomely....no need for lithium....

Solid state is on the horizon....

Best wishes..
Happy cartin'

You were bringing up points you suggest worked against choosing Lithium - I'm throwing out counterpoints with some specific supporting data that might be helpful to the OP. To clarify, and as mentioned, you don't need 72v for solid range, but it can be a better power delivery method for the amp draws involved in these carts and if you are considering a battery replacement that's the time to consider that option.

Voltage sag under load and steeper voltage falloff with falling SOC wasn't mentioned previously, but are major differentiators between LA and Lithium approaches. There appears to be a thread here on the Icon forum regarding carts going into limp mode - likely due to this battery characteristic.

I've used AGM batteries over the years with great success in marine applications, so appreciate their specific advantages.

It's great we have options and Lithium or Lead Acid batteries (vented or AGM) both will move the cart down the road so to each their own, but it's good to know some of the differences in how they do it.

[ATrain]

Originally Posted by fstop

You were bringing up points you suggest worked against choosing Lithium - I'm throwing out counterpoints with some specific supporting data that might be helpful to the OP. To clarify, and as mentioned, you don't need 72v for solid range, but it can be a better power delivery method for the amp draws involved in these carts and if you are considering a battery replacement that's the time to consider that option.

Voltage sag under load and steeper voltage falloff with falling SOC wasn't mentioned previously, but are major differentiators between LA and Lithium approaches. There appears to be a thread here on the Icon forum regarding carts going into limp mode - likely due to this battery characteristic.

I've used AGM batteries over the years with great success in marine applications, so appreciate their specific advantages.

It's great we have options and Lithium or Lead Acid batteries (vented or AGM) both will move the cart down the road so to each their own, but it's good to know some of the differences in how they do it.

Further, 72v is not compatible with these carts. The motor may be capable of handling it but the controller is not.

The controllers are rated at 48v with an "action voltage range" of 20~63V. So 72v would cause problems AFAIK.

Lithium, specifically LiFePO4 (lithium ion phosphate), is the way to go, but quality, reliability, price, and support are just not there yet in my opinion for these carts.

In the next 1-3 years though, I think that will change.

[CartsRFun]

Originally Posted by ATrain

Further, 72v is not compatible with these carts. The motor may be capable of handling it but the controller is not.


Lithium, specifically LiFePO4 (lithium ion phosphate), is the way to go, but quality, reliability, price, and support are just not there yet in my opinion for these carts.

In the next 1-3 years though, I think that will change.

Thanks Atrain ....Exactly my point..

I am not against lithium batteries...it is their very high price, poor range and reliability...not ready yet for prime time....

As Atrain put it ...in the next 1-3 years ...perhaps...

However solid state batteries are coming in new Toyota electrics afaik..
and will be a better bet than lithiums without the problems and issues
of lithium...

Best wishes
Happy cartin'

[fstop]

Originally Posted by CartsRFun

Thanks Atrain ....Exactly my point..

I am not against lithium batteries...it is their very high price, poor range and reliability...not ready yet for prime time....

As Atrain put it ...in the next 1-3 years ...perhaps...

However solid state batteries are coming in new Toyota electrics afaik..
and will be a better bet than lithiums without the problems and issues
of lithium...

Best wishes
Happy cartin'

You make your opinions very clear, but for the benefit of the OP I'll list a few more relevant facts related to his / her question and keep my opinions out of it.

The solid state variety being developed will also be lithium - the goal is to eventually eliminate the liquid electrolyte. It will likely be awhile though before they will be available for our purposes here.

There is no way ATM to get more range in your golf cart per unit of size or weight (power density) than with lithium.
"Poor range" is not a characteristic of lithium batteries, unless you choose one with the incorrect AH rating for your use. Same goes for LA or any type of battery for that matter. A 100ah LiOn battery will move your cart farther than a 100ah Lead Acid one. Add to this the fact that the more current you draw from a LA battery, the more the AH rating falls. This is much-less true for LiOn.

Which also leads to why you can't compare lithium to lead acid by AH rating since you can use most of a LiOn battery's AHs, but a good portion of an LA battery's AH capacity is not available (esp. if you want them to last for any length of time).

I purposely mentioned that I wasn't sure if an Icon could deal with 72v (sounds like maybe not), but in any event the voltage is really not the main issue if range is the concern - you can compare power across voltages with a KWH rating (V x Ah). It is just that 72v may be able to be more efficient depending on motor / controller etc..., which is why those looking for maximum efficiency (which improves range) might consider this option.

Different batteries fit different use profiles for different reasons, and the one buying those batteries should look into it, but most would agree that it's important to know the details in order to make an intelligent choice for your own particular situation.