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Old 04-29-2021, 07:18 AM   #471
fstop
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Default Re: Basic Nissan Leaf 7 module Lithium setup with Generic Chinese BMS

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Originally Posted by Volt_Ampere View Post
You just add another contact in the relay circuit (or throttle circuit) Normally, the controller still controls the solenoid.
OK - I see - that makes perfect sense.
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Old 04-29-2021, 07:28 AM   #472
fstop
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Default Re: Basic Nissan Leaf 7 module Lithium setup with Generic Chinese BMS

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Originally Posted by Murby View Post
The problem with the cheap BMS's is not JUST that they pass all that current through them, its that they are cheap BMS's to begin with. They use cheap and undersized components, undersized wire, and are built to the bare minimum survival specs.

I can't even count the number of times I've heard of batteries being ruined because a Chinese BMS drained a cell to zero.

I understand its not that big of a deal to lose a cell in a 50 or 100 ah pack, but I've seen people use these cheap BMS's on off-grid packs with 500ah systems.. and loosing a 500ah cell is an expensive problem.

Some folks don't have a lot of choice, and for a golf cart, I can kind of understand.. Just be careful and don't go parking a lithium ion golf cart running a cheap BMS in your garage. When these BMS's fail with phosphate batteries, its just a big smoker.. You open a window, air it out, buy some new batteries. but when they fail with lithium ion packs, things can catch on fire.

I made a chart:
Expensive LiFePO4 + Cheap BMS = Get Smoke, Lose Money
Expensive LiFePO4 + Good BMS = a good investment
Cheap Lithium Ion + Cheap BMS = Fire, Lose Money, Cart, Maybe your house.
Cheap Lithium Ion + Good BMS = a good investment with only slight risk.

I like LiFePO4.. but dang are they super expensive and bulky.. and since most of them are made in China, you never really know what you're getting. They might advertise 2000 cycles but you won't know until years later, if ever.

Lithium Ion is cheap, packs a lot more power than the phosphate cells in the same volume, and since they're used in EV's, they are generally readily available. Problem is, you need a good quality BMS to prevent the guys with long water hoses from showing up.

Good BMS's.:
REC BMS
Batrium
Orion
And I think Elithion Lithumate should be included as I'm hearing good things. They make a Vinci-LV that is field configurable (GUI Interface) , expandable, comes with CAN interface for a charger, and can operate in a master-slave config without special ordering. $350, which isn't a bad price at all if you're spending $1500 or more on a battery. Best of all, made in Colorado..
Good info and I like your take on the big picture.

I'd add that of course a "good bms" can fail too. A few threads here detailing issues with Chargery and Zeva (which aren't on your list, but many use them as such). Maybe it is less often, I just don't know. I started out intending to build a Leaf pack, bought a "pretty good" BMS and other parts already before deciding for my use It made more sense to me safety and otherwise (new -vs- used cells etc) to go LifePo4 inside a steel box, so sold the parts I'd already bought.

More than one way to skin a cat, that's for sure. Some inventive folks on this forum have come up with great solutions to all kinds of things.
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Old 05-22-2021, 01:08 PM   #473
yensidcamper
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Default Re: Basic Nissan Leaf 7 module Lithium setup with Generic Chinese BMS

Well I have been a way from the boards for a while. My system worked great until last weekend. I went for a ride and right before I got back home the BMS cut out for LV. I was basically in front of the house so no big deal, I pushed and coasted back to the garage. I plugged it in and checked it later that night and it would not charge beyond 47 volts. I checked the charger was putting 56.7 volts. I figured something was wrong with BMS or relays but I had to leave it until this weekend. I thought I left everything unplugged but there must have been some kind of parasitic drain because the batteries are down to 39V. Yikes.

I tired to connect the charger directly to the main positive and negative lead from the battery pack but it will not charge. When not underload it puts out 56.7v but as soon as I connect it to the pack it will not charge. So BMS may be good but the charger may be bad.

I am leaving town for 2 weeks. What is the safest way for me to deal with this? I pretty can accept the pack is a loss but how should I leave it while I am gone?

Thanks for any thoughts you may have.
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Old 05-22-2021, 01:35 PM   #474
Volt_Ampere
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Default Re: Basic Nissan Leaf 7 module Lithium setup with Generic Chinese BMS

What are your individual cell voltages?
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Old 05-22-2021, 03:24 PM   #475
yensidcamper
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Default Re: Basic Nissan Leaf 7 module Lithium setup with Generic Chinese BMS

Okay if the BMS is accurate

3 of them are toast for sure, less than 1V. the other are 2.790 or better. I will need to take the box apart and check because the total voltage with the meter and the BMS are 10V a part. Still a problem. I will get back that info by in the morning.

Thanks.
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Old 05-22-2021, 05:45 PM   #476
Volt_Ampere
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Default Re: Basic Nissan Leaf 7 module Lithium setup with Generic Chinese BMS

Measure the cell voltages with your multimeter. All are very low but no way they should ever be that different. Mine are always within 10mV (.010V)
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Old 05-22-2021, 09:55 PM   #477
Murby
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Default Re: Basic Nissan Leaf 7 module Lithium setup with Generic Chinese BMS

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Originally Posted by yensidcamper View Post
What is the safest way for me to deal with this? I pretty can accept the pack is a loss but how should I leave it while I am gone?

Thanks for any thoughts you may have.
Isolate the entire battery pack by disconnecting the Negative terminal from everything.
Nothing under 2.75 volts should ever see the inside of your garage or barn again.

Buy a higher quality BMS because this one just cost you your battery.

This is why I keep telling people to get a quality BMS instead of the cheap Chinese garbage.

Get a REC BMS, set your max cell voltage to 4.05 and your cells should last a long time.
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Old 05-23-2021, 08:04 AM   #478
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Default Re: Basic Nissan Leaf 7 module Lithium setup with Generic Chinese BMS

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Originally Posted by Murby View Post
Get a REC BMS, set your max cell voltage to 4.05 and your cells should last a long time.
I did a quick search of the REC BMS and from what I see this unit will cost about $1,000.

I have been using a ZEVA BMS for (I'm gonna guess) 3-4 years now with no real issues. (Pouring rain in the monitor....but that dried out and all was good again) at a cost of $500.

I don't see the benefit of spending another $500 for a unit that does the same thing.

Maybe that's me.
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Old 05-23-2021, 09:00 AM   #479
Volt_Ampere
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Default Re: Basic Nissan Leaf 7 module Lithium setup with Generic Chinese BMS

My home designed BMS is completely isolated from the pack when the power is off. (either key off or not charging) In addition when I left the cart for months I completely isolated the pack. It was exactly at the same voltage when I returned 5 months later.
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Old 05-23-2021, 09:05 AM   #480
yensidcamper
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Default Re: Basic Nissan Leaf 7 module Lithium setup with Generic Chinese BMS

Thanks for all the replies. Here is what I have right now for voltage, all batteries isolated and measured between center taps and then outer taps.

Module 1 2.8v 2.8v 5.6v
2 2.8 2.8 5.6
3 2.9 2.9 5.8
4 2.9 2.9 5.9
5 2.8 2.8 5.6
6 2.8 2.8 5.6
7 2.8 2.8 5.6

I think I may have avoided disaster but clearly the BMS is not functioning. I will worry about that replacement after vacation.

For now I am going to replace the bus bars and try to attach my charger to the main pack negative and positive and see if I can get it to charge. If not, do you guys think this pack will sit okay for the next two weeks until I can figure out how to get it charging?

Thanks again for all the helpful replies.
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