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Old 09-10-2018, 05:07 PM   #11
Fegarex
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Default Re: 2007 TXT 36v needs new batteries

Just to throw a wrench in it all I got the Trojans and I heard they were the best but I have no local dealer. (I don't live in Florida were cart are everywhere. LOL). I had one go bad and it was a 3 1/2 hour round trip to get it replaced. Not like just running to the NAPA store. Chances are it will never happen again but it was a long way to get a replacement.
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Old 09-11-2018, 05:46 AM   #12
Sir Nuke
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Default Re: 2007 TXT 36v needs new batteries

iamgeo......like I was trying to say, and what johnnie was saying...look at the chart again, the best thing you can do is to buy the batteries that have the highest AH rating you can, whether you are buying 6v batteries or 8v.....any of the batteries that above the yellow shaded area are "above standard, and that will equate to longer run times as they will have more "juice" in them......THEN as long as you take care of them properly you will be good.
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Old 09-11-2018, 11:41 AM   #13
sunking
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Default Re: 2007 TXT 36v needs new batteries

T-105's here go for $98 with Core exchange, or $123 without a core and I live in nowhere TX. We have a Bi-Lo Wholesale here and they carry a full line of Trojan batteries.

If you go to a box store like Walmart, Costco, O'Riley's, NAPA and buy a house brand they are made by East Penn aka DEKA, a low to mid end battery manufacture.

As for bang for the buck, well looks like you are getting bad advice to buy the highest Amp Hour rating. Amp Hour Rating does not mean anything without a Voltage and Discharge Rate specified.

The real cost is Watt Hours or Energy. Amp Hours is neither and only half the answer. You are paying for Watt Hours, not Amp Hours. You want to know $/wh

Watt Hours = Battery Nominal Voltage x Amp Hours.

Example T-105 is 6 volts x 225 AH = 1350 watt hours aka 1.35 Kwh. In my area a T-105 cost $98, which works out to $98/1350 wh = $0.0726/wh or $72.60/Kwh.

A T-875 is 8 volts x 170 AH = 1360 watt hours and in my area cost $125. That brings watt hour cost to $125/1360 wh = $0.092/wh. That is 21% higher cost than a T-105

A Ranger 160 is 8 volts x 204 AH = 1632 watt hours, and around here cost $116 or $0.071/wh

Lastly a T-1275 is a 12 volt x 150 AH = 1800 AH, and around here cost $130 or $0.071/Wh.

So of the four most popular Trojan Batteries the least expensive is the T-105, Ranger 160, and T-1275, and the most expensive is the T-875.

So forget AH, you want to know Watt Hour cost, not AH. Heck I will sell you all the 300 AH batteries you want for $300. But there is a catch, they are 2-volt cells and would take 24 of them to make 48 volts or about $7200.

Last thing to look at is the warranty. Which is better a 1 year or 2 year warranty. All those lessor batteries like US Battery, Crown, Exide are all 1 year warranties.

You get what you pay for.
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Old 09-11-2018, 12:51 PM   #14
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Default Re: 2007 TXT 36v needs new batteries

All of this assumes that the battery with the lowest AH cost will last as long as higher priced batteries. But IF a Trojan lasts twice as long with only a AH cost, the Trojan is a better deal.
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Old 09-11-2018, 12:59 PM   #15
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Default Re: 2007 TXT 36v needs new batteries

In post#6, iamgeo attempted to make it clear that going to 42V or higher wasn't an option.
That should have of narrowed the discussion to 6V batteries.
Therefore the Amp-Hour rating is a valid yardstick for comparisons.

It is true that one must use Watt-Hours when comparing batteries of different voltages, but when all the batteries being compared are the same voltage, the is no reason to convert to Amp-Hours to Watt-Hours, the percentages for range and life expectancy remain the same.

FWIW: Attached is a brochure about battery comparisons put out by a battery manufacturer.

Also attached is a list I put together showing relative life expectancy of various makes and model 6V batteries based on the same average discharge. I used Trojan Life Cycle data for all seven brands, but I was using a 30% discharge on a Trojan T-105 as the base line and the life cycle data is fairly consistent in that area for most brands (Attachment-3), so the comparisons are fairly reasonable.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Comparing Batteries.jpg (201.5 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg Battery lifespans at same Amp discharge.JPG (65.0 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg SoC vs Lifespan.jpg (127.8 KB, 0 views)
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Old 09-11-2018, 01:28 PM   #16
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Default Re: 2007 TXT 36v needs new batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by davewil@mc.net View Post
All of this assumes that the battery with the lowest AH cost will last as long as higher priced batteries. But IF a Trojan lasts twice as long with only a AH cost, the Trojan is a better deal.
It is a bit more complicated that that.

Battery life expectancy is based on the average SoC (State of Charge) the battery is maintained at. A T-105 that is only take down to 80% SoC daily will last about 2.26 times as long as a T-105 that is taken down to 50% Soc daily. (Graph attached)

After the same amount of discharge, the SoC of a higher Amp-hour battery is higher than a lower Amp-Hour battery, so higher Amp-Hour batteries last long, if other factors are equal.

Here is a list of life expediencies for various Amp-Hour 6V batteries in 5AH increments. Divide the overall cost of a set of batteries by the life expectancy of the AH closest to the battery's rated AH and get the cost per month (or cost per year). That will show you which battery is the most cost effective.
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Old 09-11-2018, 04:01 PM   #17
sunking
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Default Re: 2007 TXT 36v needs new batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnieB View Post
It is true that one must use Watt-Hours when comparing batteries of different voltages, but when all the batteries being compared are the same voltage, the is no reason to convert to Amp-Hours to Watt-Hours, the percentages for range and life expectancy remain the same.
Partially correct, but not the big long term picture.

Battery manufactures play games with AH ratings. Example you may think a 6volt 225 AH is a 6-volt 225 AH battery but you would be dead wrong. It is only 225 AH if you discharge it at the 20 hour rate of 11.25 amps. How many of you limit your battery discharge current to 11.25 amps?

Are you done laughing now?

Fact and truth is you discharge your battery at the 1 to 2 hour rate of 50 to 125 amps on average. A little physical law called Peukert Law robs you blind when you discharge at a faster rate. Peukert Law states: The faster you discharge a battery, the less capacity the battery has. You cannot get around this Law as it affects every battery. Commercial and Industrial batteries are rated at 4, 6, and 8 hours. All the sudden that 225 AH battery is now a 100 AH or less battery.

US Battery, Exide will not publish Discharge Curves or Peukert Correction Factors. Reason is simple, it gets embarrassing and shows their low quality. Trojan even conceals it to some degree because they only show as low as the 5-hour rate which is 185 AH for a T-105. Look for yourself. Much better than US Baattery and most others you can name. But not even Trojan publishes the 1 and 2 hour rates to the public unless you know how to convert Minutes to AH. If you are a dealer or have dealer contacts you can see the discharge curves on say a US Battery XC 2000 XC2 6-volt 220 AH @ the 5 hour discharge rate is 140 AH down from 220 AH at 20 hour rate. So yeah the US battery is less expensive if you use the 20 hour rate, but more expensive if you use it at the rate you intend to use it at. Compound the fact the battery will not last as long, and the US Battery equivalent is a lot more expensive.

Is Trojan the best? Heck no not even close. There is a manufacture that runs circles around Trojan. If you were to install their 6-volt 230 AH battery in identical Golf Carts would out perform Trojan in every category. Most of you have never heard of them or could afford them. But they are less expensive. Have any of you ever heard of an FLA Golf Cart battery with a 7 year warranty with first 3 years full replacement price? Nope, best you can get is 18 months with Trojan, or 1 year with anyone else. Only way to get a 7 year Trojan Battery is with their Industrial line which carries a 10 year warranty.

Anyone ever here of Rolls? The S-290 is a GC2 battery, 6-volts 230 AH @ the 20 hour rate if you want to play manufactures number game, but the 1 hour rate no one can compete with at 92 AH. And that comes with a 7 year warranty. Return any 3 year old golf cart battery to Scotty or any other battery rep, and see how loud they laugh at you about a warranty claim. Rolls replace it free of charge.
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Old 09-11-2018, 04:32 PM   #18
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Default Re: 2007 TXT 36v needs new batteries

And to make it even more fun, how long the battery stays partially discharged drastically affects its useful life. If you take it camping, where noisy generators are frowned upon, and drive it all weekend, but only get it down to 70% ALL WEEKEND, compared to someone who gets theirs down to 60%, but charges it every night...

Though a little crude, the more lead (pounds) the better?
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Old 09-11-2018, 08:16 PM   #19
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Default Re: 2007 TXT 36v needs new batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunking View Post
Partially correct, but not the big long term picture.

Battery manufactures play games with AH ratings. Example you may think a 6volt 225 AH is a 6-volt 225 AH battery but you would be dead wrong. It is only 225 AH if you discharge it at the 20 hour rate of 11.25 amps. How many of you limit your battery discharge current to 11.25 amps?

Are you done laughing now?

Fact and truth is you discharge your battery at the 1 to 2 hour rate of 50 to 125 amps on average. A little physical law called Peukert Law robs you blind when you discharge at a faster rate. Peukert Law states: The faster you discharge a battery, the less capacity the battery has. You cannot get around this Law as it affects every battery. Commercial and Industrial batteries are rated at 4, 6, and 8 hours. All the sudden that 225 AH battery is now a 100 AH or less battery.

US Battery, Exide will not publish Discharge Curves or Peukert Correction Factors. Reason is simple, it gets embarrassing and shows their low quality. Trojan even conceals it to some degree because they only show as low as the 5-hour rate which is 185 AH for a T-105. Look for yourself. Much better than US Baattery and most others you can name. But not even Trojan publishes the 1 and 2 hour rates to the public unless you know how to convert Minutes to AH. If you are a dealer or have dealer contacts you can see the discharge curves on say a US Battery XC 2000 XC2 6-volt 220 AH @ the 5 hour discharge rate is 140 AH down from 220 AH at 20 hour rate. So yeah the US battery is less expensive if you use the 20 hour rate, but more expensive if you use it at the rate you intend to use it at. Compound the fact the battery will not last as long, and the US Battery equivalent is a lot more expensive.

Is Trojan the best? Heck no not even close. There is a manufacture that runs circles around Trojan. If you were to install their 6-volt 230 AH battery in identical Golf Carts would out perform Trojan in every category. Most of you have never heard of them or could afford them. But they are less expensive. Have any of you ever heard of an FLA Golf Cart battery with a 7 year warranty with first 3 years full replacement price? Nope, best you can get is 18 months with Trojan, or 1 year with anyone else. Only way to get a 7 year Trojan Battery is with their Industrial line which carries a 10 year warranty.

Anyone ever here of Rolls? The S-290 is a GC2 battery, 6-volts 230 AH @ the 20 hour rate if you want to play manufactures number game, but the 1 hour rate no one can compete with at 92 AH. And that comes with a 7 year warranty. Return any 3 year old golf cart battery to Scotty or any other battery rep, and see how loud they laugh at you about a warranty claim. Rolls replace it free of charge.
I looked at Rolls as well as a several other manufacturers when I decided to upgrade to 42V, but the determining factor was more geography than brand. I live in a small town half a day's drive to vendors that stocked or would order the high AH batteries I was looking for, other than Exide through a local Rural King store. So I went with the highest AH I could get locally, which wasn't quite the best bang for the buck, but a lot less hassle for me.

I find it interesting that Rolls has changed their specs on their S-290 battery. Attached are the May 2013 and May 2018 spec sheets.

As for the 1Hr discharge rate of 92AH for the S-290 beating the others, the 1Hr discharge rate of the economy grade US Battery (US 1800 XC - 6V 208AH) is 122AH and the closest peer to the 230AH (20 Hr rate) S-290 is the US 2200 XC, at 232AH and has a 133AH 1Hr rate.

However, the run-time minutes at a 75A discharge rate is slightly better for the S-290 (117A @ 75A) than the US 2200 XC (115 min @ 75A).

The pricing for the Rolls S-290 I find on-line is competitive at about $150 each with no core exchange, but shipping would most likely be required, which would be prohibitive. https://www.thesolarbiz.com/rolls-su...SABEgKHpfD_BwE

Granted, the 7 year warranty is an interesting feature and would be a tie breaker when other factors were equal.

FWIW: Here are some those "unpublished" information items that are downloadable from the US Battery website.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg AH Capacity - US Battery.JPG (114.0 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg US Battery AH capacity.jpg (439.6 KB, 0 views)
File Type: jpg US Battery Cycle vs DoD.JPG (108.8 KB, 0 views)
Attached Files
File Type: pdf s290-1.pdf (486.9 KB, 0 views)
File Type: pdf S-290.pdf (1.22 MB, 0 views)
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Old 09-12-2018, 08:38 AM   #20
tommy-g
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Default Re: 2007 TXT 36v needs new batteries

I got the Duracell from Sams club. Looks like I am in for another set, the ones I look to be replacing have a K2 sticker on them.

So about 5 years... I dont use it much, and I cant say that its demon fast...

Sams club batteries
GC2 6v rated 105mins @ 75A for $85 (T-105 is rated 115mins @75A) - I dont pretend to understand the above conversation, but whats 10 mins among friends. The T105 is somewhere around $150), so its almost, half the price.

They also have
EGC2 6v rated 120mins @75A for $120 ish

and this crazy batter
GC2 AGM 6v rated 409mins at 25A for $179- - no idea why this is so much lower in AMP or if that is good or bad, but there you go...



** Prices are from a pic i took of the rack last year, when a friend needed batteries

*** also note, I cant say I am super excited about how long the batteries last (runtime ). However, I am terrible with the cart, I will run it till it can barely crawl, then charge iit up. So I use it heavy for one month, then it mostly sits. Probably the worst case scenerio. In my eyes, I would ruin an expensive one also... I really wish it was easy to read these specs and figure out how good the battery is. I see these messages above me, but honestly its getting out of my league.

Looking for a good battery, gives me good long run times, at some price that gives the best bang for the buck.
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