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Old 11-02-2022, 05:57 PM   #21
augiedoggy
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Default Re: Eco Battery 105Ah 48V Lithium Golf Cart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat911 View Post
No, itís ION. No mistake was made. Ion and iron are two different things.

https://www.britannica.com/science/ion-physics

All batteries rely on the movement of Ions.

NMC batteries actually have no iron in them at all. As well as Lithium, they have Nickel (N), Manganese (M) and Cobalt (C). LiFePO4 do have iron in them, they have Lithium (Li) Iron (Fe) and Phosphate (PO4).
lithium ion and lifepo4 batteries are two different things. Two different recognized types of battery chemistry but you know that.. Not sure why you would rope them together and confuse people who might read this.
Newer ev batteries (like the eco battery mentioned in this thread) are most often lifepo4.. older ev batteries like the leaf batteries as well as cell phone and laptop batteries are lithium ion batteries.
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Old 11-02-2022, 08:56 PM   #22
Pat911
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Default Re: Eco Battery 105Ah 48V Lithium Golf Cart

Augiedoggy,

LiFePO4 is a type of Lithium Ion battery as is NMC. The links below describe LiFePO4 as a type of Lithium Ion battery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithiu...sphate_battery

https://www.grepow.com/blog/lifepo4-...r-battery.html

https://ehs.umass.edu/sites/default/...tery%20SOP.pdf

From the previous link....
Quote:
Lithium-ion: Lithium-ion batteries are rechargeable batteries that are commonly found in cell
phones, lap tops, drones, robotic equipment, and tablets. They contain lithium ions and an
electrolyte solution that is usually a mixture of organic carbonates.
Lithium: Unlike lithium-ion batteries, lithium batteries are not rechargeable. These batteries are
commonly found in medical devices, laser pointers, and remote car locks, and they are also
referred to as primary batteries.
https://rebelbatteries.com/blogs/lit...batteries-made

From the previous link...
Quote:
In LiFePO4 batteries, the iron and phosphate ions form grids that loosely trap the lithium ions as shown in Figure 2. During the charging of the cell, these loosely trapped lithium ions easily get pulled to the negative electrode through the membrane in the middle. The membrane is made of a type of polymer having lots of tiny little pores for the lithium ions to pass through easily.
I'm not confusing anything. You're the one that is implying that I'm using Ion when I should be using Iron. I'm trying to clarify that Lithium Ion batteries come in different forms. Yes they are different chemistries, one is LiFePO4 and the other in NMC but they are both still lithium Ion batteries. In fact, there are many different Lithium Ion battery chemistries, at least 6 that I know of. All rechargeable lithium batteries rely on the movement of the lithium Ions to/from the anode/cathode, regardless of the chemistry

Cheers
Pat.
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Old 11-02-2022, 09:16 PM   #23
augiedoggy
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Default Re: Eco Battery 105Ah 48V Lithium Golf Cart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat911 View Post
Augiedoggy,

LiFePO4 is a type of Lithium Ion battery as is NMC. The links below describe LiFePO4 as a type of Lithium Ion battery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithiu...sphate_battery

https://www.grepow.com/blog/lifepo4-...r-battery.html

https://ehs.umass.edu/sites/default/...tery%20SOP.pdf

From the previous link....

https://rebelbatteries.com/blogs/lit...batteries-made

From the previous link...

I'm not confusing anything. You're the one that is implying that I'm using Ion when I should be using Iron. I'm trying to clarify that Lithium Ion batteries come in different forms. Yes they are different chemistries, one is LiFePO4 and the other in NMC but they are both still lithium Ion batteries. In fact, there are many different Lithium Ion battery chemistries, at least 6 that I know of. All rechargeable lithium batteries rely on the movement of the lithium Ions to/from the anode/cathode, regardless of the chemistry

Cheers
Pat.
You are confusing the conversation.. I can share links too...
showing they are not referred to as the same thing whether scientifically and technically the same
https://lithiumhub.com/lifepo4-batte...eyre-the-best/

https://blog.epectec.com/lithium-iro...and-advantages

https://ecotreelithium.co.uk/news/li...ion-batteries/

this is silly. someone reading this might think this https://www.aliexpress.us/item/32568...andl_shipto=US

is the same thing as this

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/32568...andl_shipto=US

because you are calling them both lithium ion batteries and that not how they both are properly referred to

an lcd tv and an led tv are technically both LCD tvs because they both actually use the same type of lcd panel but if you were to buy both and compare them you would find one is very different than the other, the "LCD tv" uses cold cathode tube bulbs ad a high voltage inverter to power them for backlighting and an "LED" tv uses dc powered leds that use much less energy...

I could go on, technically a golf cart and a car are both "automobiles"...
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Old 11-02-2022, 10:36 PM   #24
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Default Re: Eco Battery 105Ah 48V Lithium Golf Cart

I know they're not the same chemistry. We are talking about the cost of Lithium Ion batteries of ANY chemistry not dropping in price due to the world shortage of Lithium (the metal). All Lithium Ion batteries, whether they are Lithium Iron Phosphate, Lithium Cobalt Oxide, Lithium Manganese Oxide, Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide or any other Lithium based chemistry have Lithium in them. There is no one specific type that is more or less susceptible to the Lithium shortage.

You're the one confusing the matter with the different chemistries. When I specifically wrote Lithium Ion, I was referring to all types of Lithium batteries. You're the one who took me to task for using Ion instead of Iron saying that I should have written Lithium Iron. That is only one specific type of Lithium Ion battery and using Iron would exclude all the other lithium batteries, which would be wrong.

Simply, all Lithium Iron batteries are Lithium Ion batteries but not all Lithium Ion batteries are Lithium Iron batteries.

To use your TV analogy, If there was a shortage of LCD panels, wouldn't it affect both LCD and LED TV's. And, as you say, an LED TV is still an LCD TV, just with different backlighting. A LiFePo4 battery is still a Lithium Ion battery, just with a different chemistry.
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Old 11-02-2022, 10:50 PM   #25
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Default Re: Eco Battery 105Ah 48V Lithium Golf Cart

Honestly I didn't think this thread was started to discuss lithium supplies or the market trends. I suggested diy lifepo4 to the OP due to the significant cost savings and flexibility with higher amp bms options. I just wanted to make it clear that there are different types of lithium batteries out there and typically when you see those videos and memes about fires burning out of control on an Ev of some kind, those are typically what's marked and advertised to the general public as Lithium-ion batteries and not lifepo4 which is safer and in fact cheaper than lithium-ion due to a lifespan than typically be 4x5 times longer regardless of raw material costs.
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Old 11-02-2022, 11:06 PM   #26
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Default Re: Eco Battery 105Ah 48V Lithium Golf Cart

Finally something we agree on except for the fact that to be technically correct, you are comparing LiFePO4 with Nickel Manganese Cobalt (NMC) or similar. It is the Cobalt content that makes the latter more susceptible to thermal runaway. Any Lithium Ion battery that has Cobalt in it has this thermal instability. LiFePO4 (still technically a Lithium Ion battery) doesn't have the Cobalt which is what makes it safer.
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