Anyone upgraded a 23HP EFI Vanguard? (Model 38E3)

[daddy]

Looking to drop a Vanguard into a lifted Carryall project and wondering if the EFI 23 is worth it and then, whether or not it can be upgraded as easily as the regular version.

I believe a rev kit will fit, but can I turn up the EFI model given it has an electronic governor?

I'm happy to roll with a carbureted version but would love the convenience of EFI.

Just looking for ideas here. Appreciate any help you might be able to provide.

[slonomo]

My take on efi small engines:

I have not had one of these engines in a golf cart, but in other equipment. I can tell you the early models had lots of issues, sensors and software bugs. They created a ton of problems out in the field. I'm sure they've improved them every year since. The EFI on those engines are mostly a glorified electronic carburetor, not port injection, as far as I know. I'm sure they have their benefits (cold starts, cold weather, auto enrichment, fuel economy, emissions) but I'd bet the benefits are only marginal, otherwise every engine they sell would have the efi on it. Cost is a factor too. I'm guessing the efi models are significantly more expensive? If you are going to modify it, just do what is tried and true and go with the carb. The carb engines can be tuned and upgraded quite easily, even upgraded to motorcycle style Mikuni carbs and get fantastic driveability and throttle response. What you don't want to happen is to buy the efi engine and then have issues with increasing performance. One of the main reasons small engines have efi is to satisfy EPA requirements on emissions. If you're going to rev it up for more power you just throw the emissions thing out the window anyway.

[daddy]

Originally Posted by slonomo

My take on efi small engines:

I have not had one of these engines in a golf cart, but in other equipment. I can tell you the early models had lots of issues, sensors and software bugs. They created a ton of problems out in the field. I'm sure they've improved them every year since. The EFI on those engines are mostly a glorified electronic carburetor, not port injection, as far as I know. I'm sure they have their benefits (cold starts, cold weather, auto enrichment, fuel economy, emissions) but I'd bet the benefits are only marginal, otherwise every engine they sell would have the efi on it. Cost is a factor too. I'm guessing the efi models are significantly more expensive? If you are going to modify it, just do what is tried and true and go with the carb. The carb engines can be tuned and upgraded quite easily, even upgraded to motorcycle style Mikuni carbs and get fantastic driveability and throttle response. What you don't want to happen is to buy the efi engine and then have issues with increasing performance. One of the main reasons small engines have efi is to satisfy EPA requirements on emissions. If you're going to rev it up for more power you just throw the emissions thing out the window anyway.

Definitely appreciate the feedback. The goal was to address the cold starts, etc. but can completely understand the points you make. For a guy that wants mildly improved performance, do you have any recommendations?

I'm not looking to race this thing but would like better response, higher speed and I'd really like it to sound good, as well.

Thanks!

[slonomo]

So I have had a 16hp Vanguard, a 23hp Vanguard, and a Predator 670 all in the same cart. My favorite was the 16hp Vanguard with rev kit and CPP cam, it was quick, smooth, quiet, fun, and powerful. My second choice would be the Predator 670, it was cheap, quiet, and powerful enough. My least favorite was the 23hp Vanguard, mostly because it was loud and way too powerful with a 34mm Mikuni kit, unusable to work in the yard, way overkill. I hear a 23 Vanguard with a rev kit, cam, and Mikuni is a real scary powerplant!

[slonomo]

Higher speed doesn't come from engine hp, it comes from your final drive ratio. Raising rpm will give you more rpm, but revving any of these engines past 4500 rpm regularly will take a toll. The occasional speed run is ok. A bigger engine will, however, give you very quick acceleration.

I'd suggest the engine of your choice, a rev kit, and a gear change to 8:1 if available, and maybe 22" tires. You should get 35-40 mph without over revving the engine.

With that kind of speed I'd be looking to improve your brakes lol

[daddy]

Originally Posted by slonomo

Higher speed doesn't come from engine hp, it comes from your final drive ratio. Raising rpm will give you more rpm, but revving any of these engines past 4500 rpm regularly will take a toll. The occasional speed run is ok. A bigger engine will, however, give you very quick acceleration.

I'd suggest the engine of your choice, a rev kit, and a gear change to 8:1 if available, and maybe 22" tires. You should get 35-40 mph without over revving the engine.

With that kind of speed I'd be looking to improve your brakes lol

Thanks! I have a front disc brake kit in hand, already. 35-40 isn’t what I need to see. 25-30, maybe. I’m all for torque and quickness. It’s sitting on 23’s right now. Really would rather avoid a gear swap, if possible.

Sounds like I might be good with just a rev kit on the 23? I just want it to be safer when giving it the occasional go. Not too worried about it being loud. I have a 2021 Onward if I wanna roll around quietly. :)

How big of a deal is a cam?

Did you have a custom exhaust or just run the header the kits come with?

[daddy]

And, putting a Predator in a 1989 Carryall just feels wrong. :)

[slonomo]

Well, if you have 23" tires, an all stock 23 Vanguard with stock gears will get you 25 mph and will be plenty quick compared to stock. You won't need a rev kit, just make sure you don't over rev the engine. 4200 - 4500 rpm is the top without a rev kit, get a tachometer. You can dial in the stock carb to work well enough. Get a stock muffler if you can, they sound pretty good and are decently quiet. Otherwise you'll want a header kit with some kind of muffler on the end. There are lots of threads about mufflers here, that's really a personal preference and you might have to try a couple to get the sound you want.

The next step up would be rev kit and cam. Cam is not difficult to change but if you don't have any engine experience, might want to find a friend who does, just to make sure you get it right.

After that, a carb change will give you crazy power and feel.

After that you're talking engine work.

[daddy]

Originally Posted by slonomo

Well, if you have 23" tires, an all stock 23 Vanguard with stock gears will get you 25 mph and will be plenty quick compared to stock. You won't need a rev kit, just make sure you don't over rev the engine. 4200 - 4500 rpm is the top without a rev kit, get a tachometer. You can dial in the stock carb to work well enough. Get a stock muffler if you can, they sound pretty good and are decently quiet. Otherwise you'll want a header kit with some kind of muffler on the end. There are lots of threads about mufflers here, that's really a personal preference and you might have to try a couple to get the sound you want.

The next step up would be rev kit and cam. Cam is not difficult to change but if you don't have any engine experience, might want to find a friend who does, just to make sure you get it right.

After that, a carb change will give you crazy power and feel.

After that you're talking engine work.

Thanks for that. Sounds like a cam and rev kit are in my future. I can tackle it, but I do have some friends that do more mechanical work than I do. Might tag-team it!

Im planning to have a cycle shop weld up something custom for the header. I want a lab electric cutout so I can run straight pipes or muffled. That may not be the greatest idea, but it sounds fun right now, anyway. Was considering finding a motorcycle touring muffler…

Again, thanks for the time and energy.

[slonomo]

Good luck. Take lots of photos and start a build thread!