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Old 05-19-2021, 04:49 PM   #11
ATrain
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Default Re: Is RoyPow a fake company??

As long as RoyPow keeps faking it and "making it", it seems like things will be ok as dealers will hold them to account.

I worry if there is a major incident with their packs, such as overheating, fire, explosion, etc that when insurance and lawyers get involved...RoyPow would just disappear.
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Old 05-19-2021, 08:50 PM   #12
bzlytbeer
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Default Re: Is RoyPow a fake company??

Quote:
Originally Posted by EzIndyGo View Post
My "argument" to that is, what will/can your dealer do if the battery company ends up a complete sham and has no way of fixing or replacing your battery X years from now? I'd be pretty confident your dealer would take the stance of, "Sorry, there's nothing we can do" and not handle it for you. I could be wrong and you have a very outstanding dealer willing to take losses on the account of another company, but I'm fairly confident that wouldn't be the case.

I feel like that's what I'm seeing on some of the FB sites. Folks with faulty batteries and no timeline of repair or replacement.

I've said it other places... One, I don't want to pay for lithium at the current price point. But mostly, the product development for the cart market is just too young for my liking. Way too many people trying to rush solutions to market in my opinion. I'll stick with FLA for another go-round and see what's happened a few years down the road.

That said, it seems Extreme Team is the go-to at the moment based on the product AND service. Maybe they've figured something out. Again, I'll allow it to mature. If they're the real deal, they'll still be around in 4-5 years when I'll need batteries.

I agree 100%. That is/was my only concern with them. My dealer is a nice brick and mortar shop, and they are really great, but I know full well if my battery has an issue, it does not get fixed in-house. Not sure if they will give me another in the mean time or not (guessing not), but hopefully I don't have to find out. That is the only thing about lithium that bothers me.

My other option would be to take it apart myself, which at some point I may do anyways once the warranty is over - just to put in a little beefier BMS.
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Old 05-19-2021, 09:00 PM   #13
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Default Re: Is RoyPow a fake company??

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATrain View Post
As long as RoyPow keeps faking it and "making it", it seems like things will be ok as dealers will hold them to account.

I worry if there is a major incident with their packs, such as overheating, fire, explosion, etc that when insurance and lawyers get involved...RoyPow would just disappear.
LifeP04 would likely mainly make a lot of smoke in the event of a major failure, -vs- NCA or NMC lithium which are more likely to burn or 'splode.

I think RoyPow is "real" in the same way that so many "companies" are these days (Anker, RAVpower, etc...). It's just marketing, a website and a logo really. Providing service and having dealers is a new foray, though, and one I'm not sure they've really got a good handle on. A few forum members have had issues with packs and the dealers have taken care of them, though in some cases it took some time IIRC. There are probably some cases where that didn't happen though, but at least there is some kind of dealer network / warranty there.

I know the dealer I purchased mine from had sold a number of them before I got mine (and that was a year ago) and all his customers were thrilled with them at that time and he had not had any come back in. Not sure what his experience has been with them since then though.

I looked into building one using Leaf cells but the fire hazard potential and having to go with used, years-old cells didn't sit well with me so I opted for RoyPow. In that case it was zero support -vs- possible support the way I looked at it.
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Old 05-20-2021, 05:39 AM   #14
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Default Re: Is RoyPow a fake company??

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Originally Posted by EzIndyGo View Post

But mostly, the product development for the cart market is just too young for my liking. Way too many people trying to rush solutions to market in my opinion. I'll stick with FLA for another go-round and see what's happened a few years down the road.

That said, it seems Extreme Team is the go-to at the moment based on the product AND service. Maybe they've figured something out. Again, I'll allow it to mature. If they're the real deal, they'll still be around in 4-5 years when I'll need batteries.
What makes you think that cart batteries are anything special? All that is required for a drop in solution are cells of a high enough discharge capacity and a BMS that can handle the discharge current. Both are readily available off the shelf.

All these companies are doing is enclosing everything in a case and wiring up the BMS. Definitely not rocket science.

Cheers
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Old 05-20-2021, 08:47 AM   #15
Volt_Ampere
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Default Re: Is RoyPow a fake company??

Not sure I agree that good Lithium cells are "readily available off the shelf" for users. Let me know where they are if you can. I'm using Leaf cells because they were all I could easily find. That market is going down hill quickly IMO as the Leaf is not very popular and they are hard on batteries so if you get a used pack, it is likely nowhere near as good as new cells.
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Old 05-20-2021, 05:38 PM   #16
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Default Re: Is RoyPow a fake company??

@Volt_Ampare,

They’re available but they’re prohibitively expensive in small quantities. If purchasing in quantity, any company that wants to start selling cart batteries will have access to good, high current output cells if they are prepared to pay a premium for them. That would push the final cost up but you get what you pay for.

The idea that lithium cells will drop in price is a misconception. The cost of getting the raw materials out of the ground that go into the lithium cells are what pushes the price up, not the manufacturing process. And that price won’t be dropping any time soon. Lithium used to be used as a sanitiser in heated spa pools. It was a very good sanitiser. I haven’t been able to purchase lithium sanitiser for about 4 years now as all the lithium that is being obtained is being diverted into batteries.

P.S. I also use Leaf cells, Gen1. My modules were down to 40aH when I got them compared to 66aH when new, so I agree with you that used Leaf cells are no longer a viable option. I don’t need a great range so it’s okay for me now.

Cheers
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Old 05-20-2021, 06:27 PM   #17
Volt_Ampere
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Default Re: Is RoyPow a fake company??

Lithium cells have come way down in price over the past decade. I have been using them for RC flying since around 2005 and price has dropped by about 4X at the same time the C rating has gone up by at least 10X. The cells that I would want to use in golf carts (like Leaf, Volt, Tesla) are not available to us users. Sure a big company can buy them but not us. Liability is a big issue in this market. The drop in cells are not the same stuff. Sure they are safer but they are also not as good IMO. You don't see that chemistry in many EV's out there.
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Old 05-21-2021, 05:44 AM   #18
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Default Re: Is RoyPow a fake company??

If you want a credible supplier of lithium, go to Plowman's Carts. https://www.plowmanscarts.com/carts....cle=1614706381

He carries Allied and will order you Trojan Lithium.
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Old 05-21-2021, 07:04 AM   #19
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Default Re: Is RoyPow a fake company??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat911 View Post
What makes you think that cart batteries are anything special? All that is required for a drop in solution are cells of a high enough discharge capacity and a BMS that can handle the discharge current. Both are readily available off the shelf.

All these companies are doing is enclosing everything in a case and wiring up the BMS. Definitely not rocket science.

Cheers
Pat.
The part I wonder is what impact forces are the cells rated for? Are EV cells constructed tougher or different chemistry for higher discharge. A lot of threads out there on premade solar bank batteries leaking (cells mounted on sides or case puncture) . Tough getting good info as there seems to be little US presence
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Old 05-21-2021, 09:30 AM   #20
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Default Re: Is RoyPow a fake company??

@Volt_Ampare,

Most of the high capacity cells that are available to “us” are LiFePo4, definitely not as good as LiPo cells, but they are much more stable and hence safer for the end user. Like you, I would much rather have high quality LiPo cells, smaller, lighter and higher discharge rate. Considering the higher risk of fire, I can understand why they aren’t readily available to the end user. Most LiPo batteries available to the end user are low capacity ones to minimise fire risk. An exploding 100aH cell will do much more damage than a 3aH one.

The cost of lithium cells hasn’t really dropped much in the last 3 years and the C rate compared to size and weight hasn’t really gone up that much either in the same period. Maybe there was a significant drop in price early on but it seems to have plateaued now.

@WC53,

Most (all?) EV batteries are LiPo, which have a higher energy density and a higher discharge rate than LiFePo4, which is what most cart batteries are made up from. As for impact rating, that’s governed by the housing they are in. A ruptured high capacity LiPo cell is not something you want to be near.

Cheers
Pat.
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