Trojan battery alternatives...

[augiedoggy]

Originally Posted by gable74

Holy cow, this thread went sideways...lol..

Yes, under the right conditions, ANYTHING can burn.

lol see! you get it!

[ojo]

I'm not a lithium expert, building just my first DIY lifepo battery but, i've always read descriptions like this:

Quote
How are LiFePO4 batteries safer than other lithium batteries?
Phosphate-based batteries offer superior chemical and mechanical structure that does not overheat to unsafe levels. Thus, providing an increase in safety over lithium-ion batteries made with other cathode materials. This is because the charged and uncharged states of LiFePO4 are physically similar and highly robust, which lets the ions remain stable during the oxygen flux that happens alongside charge cycles or possible malfunctions. Overall, the iron phosphate-oxide bond is stronger than the cobalt-oxide bond, so when the battery is overcharged or subject to physical damage then the phosphate-oxide bond remains structurally stable; whereas in other lithium chemistries the bonds begin breaking down and releasing excessive heat, which eventually leads to thermal Runaway. Lithium phosphate cells are incombustible, which is an important feature in the event of mishandling during charging or discharging. They can also withstand harsh conditions, be it freezing cold, scorching heat or rough terrain. When subjected to hazardous events, such as collision or short-circuiting, they won’t explode or catch fire, significantly reducing any chance of harm. If you’re selecting a lithium battery and anticipate use in hazardous or unstable environments, LiFePO4 is likely your best choice. It’s also worth mentioning, LiFePO4 batteries are non-toxic, non-contaminating and contain no rare earth metals, making them an environmentally conscious choice.

[augiedoggy]

Originally Posted by ojo

I'm not a lithium expert, building just my first DIY lifepo battery but, i've always read descriptions like this:

Quote
How are LiFePO4 batteries safer than other lithium batteries?
Phosphate-based batteries offer superior chemical and mechanical structure that does not overheat to unsafe levels. Thus, providing an increase in safety over lithium-ion batteries made with other cathode materials. This is because the charged and uncharged states of LiFePO4 are physically similar and highly robust, which lets the ions remain stable during the oxygen flux that happens alongside charge cycles or possible malfunctions. Overall, the iron phosphate-oxide bond is stronger than the cobalt-oxide bond, so when the battery is overcharged or subject to physical damage then the phosphate-oxide bond remains structurally stable; whereas in other lithium chemistries the bonds begin breaking down and releasing excessive heat, which eventually leads to thermal Runaway. Lithium phosphate cells are incombustible, which is an important feature in the event of mishandling during charging or discharging. They can also withstand harsh conditions, be it freezing cold, scorching heat or rough terrain. When subjected to hazardous events, such as collision or short-circuiting, they won’t explode or catch fire, significantly reducing any chance of harm. If you’re selecting a lithium battery and anticipate use in hazardous or unstable environments, LiFePO4 is likely your best choice. It’s also worth mentioning, LiFePO4 batteries are non-toxic, non-contaminating and contain no rare earth metals, making them an environmentally conscious choice.

I wish there was a like button here because this is a good post that explained the difference better than my petty babbling did.

[cssnms]

Originally Posted by ojo

I'm not a lithium expert, building just my first DIY lifepo battery but, i've always read descriptions like this:

Quote
How are LiFePO4 batteries safer than other lithium batteries?
Phosphate-based batteries offer superior chemical and mechanical structure that does not overheat to unsafe levels. Thus, providing an increase in safety over lithium-ion batteries made with other cathode materials. This is because the charged and uncharged states of LiFePO4 are physically similar and highly robust, which lets the ions remain stable during the oxygen flux that happens alongside charge cycles or possible malfunctions. Overall, the iron phosphate-oxide bond is stronger than the cobalt-oxide bond, so when the battery is overcharged or subject to physical damage then the phosphate-oxide bond remains structurally stable; whereas in other lithium chemistries the bonds begin breaking down and releasing excessive heat, which eventually leads to thermal Runaway. Lithium phosphate cells are incombustible, which is an important feature in the event of mishandling during charging or discharging. They can also withstand harsh conditions, be it freezing cold, scorching heat or rough terrain. When subjected to hazardous events, such as collision or short-circuiting, they won’t explode or catch fire, significantly reducing any chance of harm. If you’re selecting a lithium battery and anticipate use in hazardous or unstable environments, LiFePO4 is likely your best choice. It’s also worth mentioning, LiFePO4 batteries are non-toxic, non-contaminating and contain no rare earth metals, making them an environmentally conscious choice.

This quote reads like an infomercial taken from a website that sells lithium batteries.

They can become unstable, they can catch fire and they do contain toxic chemicals, so that isn't exactly an accurate statement.

Are they safer than lithium ion, yes, that's not debatable.

[scottyb]

Originally Posted by cssnms

This quote reads like an infomercial taken from a website that sells lithium batteries.

They can become unstable, they can catch fire and they do contain toxic chemicals, so that isn't exactly an accurate statement.

Are they safer than lithium ion, yes, that's not debatable.

Anything can catch fire in the wrong hands.
I have been using LifePO4 batteries in model airplanes for a decade. I mention this because model airplanes crash and the battery(ies) are held in the nose.
This is a testament to the safety of this chemistry. I have experienced large 5-6 cell 5000mah batteries crushed, smashed, deformed, and puffed up from abuse and never once did I see a fire like we used to see with lithium ion batteries. Plus Lifepo4 batteries last longer.

[ojo]

Originally Posted by cssnms

This quote reads like an infomercial taken from a website that sells lithium batteries.

Probably you can trust Wikipedia?


Safety
One important advantage over other lithium-ion chemistries is thermal and chemical stability, which improves battery safety.[32] LiFePO4 is an intrinsically safer cathode material than LiCoO2 and manganese dioxide spinels through omission of the cobalt, with its negative temperature coefficient of resistance that can encourage thermal runaway. The P–O bond in the (PO4)3−ion is stronger than the Co–O bond in the (CoO2)−ion, so that when abused (short-circuited, overheated, etc.), the oxygen atoms are released more slowly. This stabilization of the redox energies also promotes faster ion migration.[38]
As lithium migrates out of the cathode in a LiCoO2 cell, the CoO2 undergoes non-linear expansion that affects the structural integrity of the cell. The fully lithiated and unlithiated states of LiFePO4 are structurally similar which means that LiFePO4 cells are more structurally stable than LiCoO2 cells.[citation needed]

No lithium remains in the cathode of a fully charged LFP cell. In a LiCoO2 cell, approximately 50% remains. LiFePO4 is highly resilient during oxygen loss, which typically results in an exothermic reaction in other lithium cells.[18] As a result, LiFePO4 cells are harder to ignite in the event of mishandling (especially during charge). The LiFePO4 battery does not decompose at high temperatures.[32]

[Sideways]

[QUOTE=gable74;1938183]Holy cow, this thread went sideways...lol..



Hey, Hey I resemble that remark!

I have had good luck with Duracell golf car batteries from Sam's Club.
They are manufactured by East Penn, who makes Deka batteries.
The first set I had went 6+ years in my series cart that was used almost everyday for golf.

[augiedoggy]

It really appears like the OP is desperately trying to convince himself that lifepo4 are dangerous for some reason...
Its ok if the risk in negligible or not, It doesnt have to have any bearing on your choice. If you dont want them you dont want them but dont expect others to just agree with you that they are dangerous just because you want to think that.

Sort of off topic but often people that are trying to push an agenda about such things on facebook get pissed off when someone rains on thier propoganda with factual data too because they dont want someone to point out for example that their burning tesla meme is photoshopped and the batteries are stored in a different location that the photoshopped fire in the picture indicates.. To them no amount of "fact" or evidence can convince them otherwise and they see such truth as a threat to their beliefs.. We might as well be talking religion at that point.

To blindly ignore the "possible" dangers that all the alternative types of battery and fuel used in golf carts have and keep reiterating the "possible" dangers of the lifepo4 batteries as if they are more of a concern regardless of the data just gives the impression of heavy bias here. Or at least thats how its coming off in conversation and I'll leave it at that.