Alltrax Fuse eliminated

[CP241]

Originally Posted by scottyb

Today is the day the fuses will no longer be included in the controller price. Somebody mentioned they went to the Alltrax website and there was no mention of adding a fuse, they should go back and check today or in next few days?
Anyway my distributor said controllers ordered today will have no fuse included.
To me this is like FORD telling me the motor warranty is void without an oil filter and not including it.

Don’t buy a FORD. Got it. No arguments here

[augiedoggy]

Originally Posted by scottyb

I would like to think you are speaking for the majority.
More costs, no problem.

Yet you are buying knockoff Curtis controls on ebay and telling everybody else to do the same.

Wait, We we are still talking about the chinese clones you yourself claimed to have been looking into supplying for quite a while right?

I dont know why I always feel like your taking jabs at me like im threatening you or something but again we are talking about a $15-$20 fuse and I was trying to be supportive of your situation... Remember im not benefiting personally from any advice I give here

This is going to be log winded and a bit off topic but since I feel once again like I have to explain myself for trying to help others have more cost effective options....

I wouldnt expect people to be thrilled about it but if they are already so willing to spend what they are now for an alltrax, $20 more for another required accessory isnt going to stop them. Many of the people who want an alltrax or navitas dont want them based on thier low cost and are going to want them regardless of other more cost effective options or not. Think of them like the premium iphone model. They want "one of the best" Although the navitas and "AC" is the rage now it seems. And so it should I guess.

Case in point the battery exploded thread from yesterday.. The OP clearly has already had the impression the alltrax will be a superior choice for him even with only 36v. It seemed his first impression was that spending all that money to replace a 400amp controller with another more expensive 400a 36v controller is a more effective use of his funds vs going to a 48v 500 or even a 300amp controller which in reality would give him a much bigger smile on his face for less bank if done right.

As someone in the business of selling aftermarket products for golf carts your in a position where I would completely expect your opinion on the matter to be a bit biased. Yet here you are seemingly just as upset that your supplier keeps raising prices as many of your customers might be. Thats good in my opinion. I see all the things you've done like your kits and documentation and thats awesome, you have a lot of loyal customers that will gladly support you regardless if it is or isnt the cheapest option for them. I have no reason to blow smoke up your a$$ about this.

Also in some cases those that want to drive their corvettes and pay dearly for the biggest names in performance parts and bling will continue to do so and those that want to build a fun ratty fast hot rod instead with most cost effective budget and options will also do so and they will in some cases really enjoy blowing the doors off those vettes in their cheap junk. (I say this as a guy whos owned multiple vettes and still does). More options and choices and knowledge of ones options should never be discouraged or seen as a threat.
Some of us cant wait to get the latest Iphones and some of us are perfectly content with what works for us and could care less what our friends have.

To put it bluntly, the folks who are like minded in any way and interested in what I have to share are going to consider it. But those that dont or buy heavily into branding and or are already deeply conditioned by the old school "you get what you pay for " mentality, regardless of how much the economics of things like manufacturing, rebranding and reselling have changed, will actually in some cases be ironically more likely to seriously consider the expensive choices if the prices are higher. Theres been some pretty crazy case studies done on the influence of just marketing and cost on two identical products at different ends of the spectrum and its effects on the reputation and reviews of that identical product vs the other.

Some people will just believe the pricier option is always better. and some people will just not give a cheap product a fair chance with the same time and attention and have bad experiences as a result.

I'm thrifty and cost conscious. On occasion it I lose out and it costs me more than it helps me. Like the $200 sr72500 alltrax I bought used and "untested" on ebay which turned out to be faulty and only work on every other pedal press. And thanks to alltrax intentional throw away full epoxied design which no doubt helps them sell more controllers, they cant be serviced like a curtis. I cant even just repair it like I normally would.

But far more often than not my thrify scrappy outlook saves me some of the limited money I do have. Sometimes thousands of dollars. and often I find the cost effective option I went with is actually the same thing others are selling with crazy markups. Like the new aluminum heads I bought bare and ported and loaded that cost me about $700 to bolt on my vette which are the very same head castings AFR rebrands as the enforcers for more than twice the cost. I deal with criticism from some of the very same people who own these "AFR" rebranded chinese heads who believe they have somehow made a superior choice and didnt support the very same Chinese manufacturer who made mine.. Lets choose to ignore that it was Curtis who sold out their american employees and took the manufacturing to the Chinese for these. They only have themselves to blame for the fact that the same chinese manufacturer they outsourced thier manufacturing to out of greed is now undercutting them by selling the same product at a price that was closer to the price Curtis was buying these for before marking up and reselling themselves.

Another example would be the $18 grand I saved on the $17,000 purchase of the brewing equipment for my brewpub even with shipping and customs vs buying the exact stuff through the big american reseller in Oregon who literally just buys the same product from the same manufacturer and rebrands it as their own more than doubling the price. These companies thrive on taking advantage of those with that outdated naive trust in "American Brands" who are more often now than ever, just than fake fronts to peddle the same stuff a person can now buy direct at a fraction of the price online. sometimes the engineering was done here but even that is dying off and that I know for a fact. and what good is a better warranty if your already prepaying for a replacement you shouldnt need!

I give alltrax props if they really do manufacture all their own products in Oregon with less than 30 employees. It doesnt offset the fact that their prices for what they offer are still too high in comparison with what I can get elsewhere and its really just that simple. Capitalism is capitalism and maybe the more affordable competition will level the playing field a bit. Its got you questioning the latest price hikes afterall.
Perhaps if I was making the kind of money those few employees must be making to justify the overhead for up to $1000 on one pwm motor controller I would think differently. Its for those the same reasons I drive an old ram ecodiesel tradesman pickup with the Italian drivetrain and not a new longhorn 2500 Cummins.. We all draw our own lines in the sand. My last truck was the most american made truck in the year it was made... A honda ridgeline ironically. That supposed american manufacturing pride didnt stop it from rusting apart faster than any other vehicle I ever owned. and I already told the story of how GM wouldnt let me past the guard shack to work if I drove my american made toyota company car but had no issues with my old mexican made dodge because it was UAW made... Everyones out for themselves but they are all about "made in America" when it helps them capitalize but not when it don't.

So I personally would never buy an alltrax controller new for a recreational camp ground golf cart. Like navitas, they have a great product and have done an even better job on marketing and they are even doing really well at selling things to people that really dont need nor will many who buy them see any real appreciable gains. Yes there are plenty extreme and beefed up carts that do benefit from it but theres at least twice as many sold that arent being properly utilized IMO. Their biggest attribute is the bragging rights in the signature of their owners thread posts and I think you know im right.

I would do a lot of things differently than many folks here. I like to research my choices and make investments count. Its a side effect of growing up poor and having to learn how to fix things to own them. Its helped me professionally too.
Thats also why I bought the $38 shipped mjz400amp solenoid that came with the resistor and diode, Its why I bought my own 2awg welding wire and made my own replacement cables for $80 cut to custom length vs buying ready made cables. Its why I made my own 260w solar panel roof with charger for $150 vs buying one from the website selling the 300w kit for $1600 and its why after learning once from buying a jakes lift for my last cart and then installing an identical lift for less than 1/3 the cost on another's cart I chose the $100 lift kit for this one. I have other things I can more effectively use that extra $250 on.

Remember my japanese made used golf cart cost me $750. I'm not spending another $750 on a controller that will give me no real advantage over the $150 (+ $40 in accessories like the diy programming cable and yes THE FUSE I purchased separately) for my it. If both controllers where comparably priced or the alltrax had a tangible advantage I could benefit from in my setup would have gone with the alltrax? maybe.

[DaveTM]

There's always the "argument" of what % of what vehicle is made in America. It's great that foreign auto companies have built plants here to assemble their vehicles. That creates jobs and stimulates the economy.

OTOH, shipping parts into the USA avoids selected import tariffs vs shipping in a completed vehicle. That's just one tiny snippet of business structure, tax law structure that effects where a plant is built.

Small companies like Alltrax require revenues (price points) to be $X in order to stay in business. (Fundamental business is revenues must exceed cost). A Chinese knock-off may be well under an Alltrax, but the labor cost for the Chinese product is far less than the USA cost.

Basic economics......If the Chinese controller companies gain a large footprint in the USA, then "Alltrax Companies" will need to cut prices (cut revenues) and\or cut cost. Cutting cost can also be cutting the quality of materials used. If "Alltrax type Companies" lose their market, then they go out of business. (Not discussing if such economic events occur that Alltrax Companies go overseas for the cheap labor) If they go out of business, USA jobs are lost, and the Chinese knock-off companies can raise their prices as the competition is gone.

For me, I'll spend the extra $$$ and buy the American product when I can, when it's feasible, when I know about it....and lastly....when I "think" about it.

As for trucks, here's a snippe from an on-line motor "rag" https://www.motorbiscuit.com/only-1-...lt-in-the-usa/

Every Toyota Tundra, full-size Ford pickup truck, and Nissan Titan is assembled in the U.S.A. Some industry experts believe the F-150 is the “most” American-made pickup, while others grant that distinction to the Toyota Tundra.

When you get into the "most" American made....your slicing hairs.

I own an F-150 that was built in Dearborn. It's now 6YO with no signs of rusting out....even sitting outside year round in Pennsylvania...subject to the winter road salts as well.

I will never, ever own a vehicle made by a Japanese base company. It's just how I think. (Right or wrong) Profits from foreign based companies go back to their "homeland". I don't care how you slice it or dice it.....that's what happens.

If supporting a USA company means I must spend 20% more for a product, then that's what I will do. Those small companies must have the revenues to continue to exist.

[augiedoggy]

Originally Posted by DaveTM

There's always the "argument" of what % of what vehicle is made in America. It's great that foreign auto companies have built plants here to assemble their vehicles. That creates jobs and stimulates the economy.

OTOH, shipping parts into the USA avoids selected import tariffs vs shipping in a completed vehicle. That's just one tiny snippet of business structure, tax law structure that effects where a plant is built.

Small companies like Alltrax require revenues (price points) to be $X in order to stay in business. (Fundamental business is revenues must exceed cost). A Chinese knock-off may be well under an Alltrax, but the labor cost for the Chinese product is far less than the USA cost.

Basic economics......If the Chinese controller companies gain a large footprint in the USA, then "Alltrax Companies" will need to cut prices (cut revenues) and\or cut cost. Cutting cost can also be cutting the quality of materials used. If "Alltrax type Companies" lose their market, then they go out of business. (Not discussing if such economic events occur that Alltrax Companies go overseas for the cheap labor) If they go out of business, USA jobs are lost, and the Chinese knock-off companies can raise their prices as the competition is gone.

For me, I'll spend the extra $$$ and buy the American product when I can, when it's feasible, when I know about it....and lastly....when I "think" about it.

As for trucks, here's a snippe from an on-line motor "rag" https://www.motorbiscuit.com/only-1-...lt-in-the-usa/

Every Toyota Tundra, full-size Ford pickup truck, and Nissan Titan is assembled in the U.S.A. Some industry experts believe the F-150 is the “most” American-made pickup, while others grant that distinction to the Toyota Tundra.

When you get into the "most" American made....your slicing hairs.

I own an F-150 that was built in Dearborn. It's now 6YO with no signs of rusting out....even sitting outside year round in Pennsylvania...subject to the winter road salts as well.

I will never, ever own a vehicle made by a Japanese base company. It's just how I think. (Right or wrong) Profits from foreign based companies go back to their "homeland". I don't care how you slice it or dice it.....that's what happens.

If supporting a USA company means I must spend 20% more for a product, then that's what I will do. Those small companies must have the revenues to continue to exist.

Just another point of view,

When I mentioned my Ridgeline its because it was not only assembled in the US, but it was also made of more us made parts than any other truck.. even GM used the same honda drivetrain in other vehicles such as the Saturn vue at the time.. Then again, those American companies like Gm are also importing foriegn knockoffs as thier own like the Korean Deawoos they rebrand and pedal as a chevy here.. but wait they all do it That how it works now.. You could go to japan and buy an american chevy branded as a toyota too.. because thats right, it was GM that invited toyota to America and the early camrys and corollas where made in the same plant as joint ventures with GM
in the early 80s the chevy nova and toyota corolla where made on the same california assembly line only with different interior and badging... well american vehicles like GM had gained such a poor reputation for quality (before the foriegn cars started showing up) and their pricing was so high (even with the same manufacturing costs)on the nova, that they werent selling well. meanwhile toyota was selling so many they had to buy some of the novas and rip the interiors out and resell them as toyotas to keep up with demand.

Gm still owned the old harrision radiator plant thats now Delphi thermal( until recently selling to Murdoch). They were one of my customers and I had friends that worked there. Well over a decade ago GM spun them into a shell company (while always still owning them) so they no longer had to buy/use the radiators they made in lockport ny and instead those radiators are now primarily made for "foreign" car manufacturers who ironically use more american components like these for the cars they make. While GM now buys radiators mainly from china. Things just arent as simple and black and white as they once were. I worked on engineering equipment for almost 20 years and a large portion of manufacturers with an engineering dept in NY and northern pa were customers of mine. I seen the same trend at most of them to send more and more of the manufacturing overseas and do less and less of the engineering in the US because quick and easy increased profits. more is never enough. That marketing of making plausible deniability about thier chinese goods cost money and people are happy to have the piece of mind they are buying american, even if its simply not.

Moral of the story is american companies also own plenty of the blame for how things are today. If you think a component that likely cost $200 to build with overhead in the states (which are likely mainly full of Asian components btw), needs to cost $1000 to make a profit well thats part of the issue and these american companies do not care where its made or whos making it. They care about ever bigger profits and bigger record breaking bonus shares. Which is why so many took or take their manufacturing over to places like mexico or china in the first place. IMO The joke is also on the american who thinks is perfectly fine to buy these chinese goods if they are packaged into an american brand label.

The change will never come at the consumer level. and it wont come from the many american companies who are enjoying record profits using cheap Chinese labor and being able to dump and pollute with less regulation and responsibility.

[DaveTM]

There is no doubt about the fact that American car companies "let" the Japanese car companies into the American market.

I'm sure I'm a bit older than you and I can remember "The Big 3" putting out cars that would literally be completely rusted through in one year. Then they used sleeved aluminum block engines under the guise of "weight savings"...and of course, we all know what happens when you put two dissimilar metals together. (Without proper engineering to allow for that)

The Big 3 thought whatever they made....the public (dumb public) would buy. Once Honda got "traction" and great word-of-mouth reviews......game over.

OTOH, it slapped the Big 3 into building better cars. OTOH....measured against what the did produce wasn't hard to beat.

[Cartmaster]

That was all a good read! just struggling to see the relevance with Alltrax dropping the need for fuse nobody bothers fitting anyway

[DaveTM]

Originally Posted by Cartmaster

That was all a good read! just struggling to see the relevance with Alltrax dropping the need for fuse nobody bothers fitting anyway

There's a connection there.............somewhere. Oh wait...there's the reason....the fuse was blown.....

[Cartmaster]

I learned loads from this thread, just nothing about fuses really?

[augiedoggy]

Originally Posted by Cartmaster

I learned loads from this thread, just nothing about fuses really?

It was implied that the fact that the fuse is now required is one of the reasons why I chose to pay $155 for my 500amp chinese curtis controller off ebay and not $943.95 for the 500a alltrax. As well as why ive recommended it to others so far after Ive had positive results. Then we went down the rabbit hole with the typical China is the root of all evil for bringing cheaper competition to the table after the US company hired them to make the controllers for them.

[DaveTM]

Originally Posted by augiedoggy

It was implied that the fact that the fuse is now required is one of the reasons why I chose to pay $155 for my 500amp chinese curtis controller off ebay and not $943.95 for the 500a alltrax. As well as why ive recommended it to others so far after Ive had positive results. Then we went down the rabbit hole with the typical China is the root of all evil for bringing cheaper competition to the table after the US company hired them to make the controllers for them.

ScottyB sells an Alltrax SR48500 Controller for $615. Not the $934 you have stated. He also as Alltrax XTC500PDS for $679. Again, no where near the $934 you have stated.