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Old 01-10-2023, 09:18 PM   #1
TMarshall
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Default 48V Lithium conversion questions

I picked up a Steiner Hawk 48V project cart. Main tag says Textron, and lot of internet sources have a reference to Cushman parts. I can not find an electrical schematic for the cart, but have found one for the Alltrax AXE controller. There are so many cut wires and splices and rats nests, I want to rip it all out and start fresh. It’s a heavy cart (see photo) at 1620 lbs with batteries, and 1200 lb load capacity on top of that. I’m guessing it’s geared for slow and steady. I want to go lithium and I see recommendations for single battery and some saying 4X 12V batteries. Any help on brand, type, qty, bundles, etc….. would be greatly appreciated. Also I notice the Alltrax schematic showing pre-charge resistors and diodes that I’m not seeing on the components currently. Should I leave as is or locate those and add in where shown?
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Old 01-11-2023, 08:36 AM   #2
DaveTM
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Default Re: 48V Lithium conversion questions

#1--The pic of the "sticker" shows "Programable Controller".....is your existing controller an Alltrax? If not, what brand?

#2--If your existing Controller is not an Alltrax, do you know what it is and if software is available to connect to it?

#3--I'm no engineer but for electronics, things such as resistors and diodes are usually good things to have on your cart.

#4--There are several post on this forum discussing the virtues of using 12V lithium units in a series. This "method" usually hasn't worked well. It appears to be "best" if you buy a "drop 'n drive" lithium pack to get the pack in the proper voltage with ONE BMS that will monitor the pack, and with a BMS that can handle your cart's 300amp "needs".
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Old 01-11-2023, 09:44 AM   #3
Volt_Ampere
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Default Re: 48V Lithium conversion questions

I strongly recommend that you do NOT use 12V Lithium batteries in Series!!!! Get a single 48V Lithium battery with at least 100Ah of capacity!
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Old 01-11-2023, 10:34 AM   #4
LukeL
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Default Re: 48V Lithium conversion questions

That is an Alltrax. An older AXE4834 series controller. They can be programmed but need the older cable and the older controller pro software (still available for download.)

https://alltraxinc.com/controller-pro-software/

https://www.ebay.com/itm/120982835983
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Old 01-11-2023, 10:50 AM   #5
scottyb
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Default Re: 48V Lithium conversion questions

The tires and weight of the vehincle exceed what I would recommend for a 300 amps controller.
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Old 01-11-2023, 03:18 PM   #6
TMarshall
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Default Re: 48V Lithium conversion questions

Ok, sounds like single 48V lithium batt. is what I need to plan for. Yes, the controller is an Alltrax AXE, and I know nothing about programmable controllers. I’m guessing it was an “upgrade” somewhere along the way, since cart is 1999 and controller is 2010. My current plan is to try and track down controls section of wiring and see if I can get some movement out of the cart. Previous Owner said it stopped going in reverse and then stopped in forward. Existing LA batteries are showing 50V, so hopefully I can at least test major components.

@scottyb , I used one of your carts unlimited C42 kits on my wife’s old ClubCar. What would you recommend for this cart? C54, C64?

Starting to think a CC or Ezgo gas rear axle and a v-twin might be a good conversion….Jk. I want a quiet cart for running around the property and neighborhood, and maybe campground/trails on vacation.

Appreciate the info guys, keep it coming if you have more advice, suggestions, or constructive criticism 👍🏻
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Old 01-23-2023, 01:17 AM   #7
ThreeCW
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Default Re: 48V Lithium conversion questions

TM,
It looks like we have sister carts with yours being a 1999 Textron Steiner Hawk and mine being a 1998 Cushman Ransomes Hawk. I'm not sure though if they are full sisters or step sisters. Likely full sisters is my guess.

You can read about the history of Cushman here:
https://golfcarttips.com/a-history-o...n-motor-works/

My quick Cushman / Ransomes / Steiner history summary is as follows:
1902 - Cushman Motor Works formed
1957 - Cushman acquired by OMC
1988 - Steiner Tractor line acquired by Ransomes
1989 - OMC sells Cushman to Ransomes
1998 - Ransomes acquired by Textron

So I am not sure which came first, the Steiner Hawk or Ransomes Hawk but they are certainly related.

My 2008 Cushman Hawk is pretty much a stock 48 volt cart (other than an upgraded solenoid). See my cart specs below in my signature footer.

I will also attach the factory wiring diagram for your reference (scanned in 4 pages your can cut and paste together). Our carts, only being one year apart, may share similar wiring.

You mention "many cut wires and splices and rats nests" in your wiring ... this was likely done when your original factory controller (likely a Curtis) was replaced with the Alltrax AXE. At one point I had considered replacing my Curtis 1219-8405 x 600 amp controller with an Alltrax controller ... it would NOT have been a plug and play install and significant wiring changes would have been required, so this likely explains why you have "many cut wires and splices ". With respect to controller size, when I spoke to Alltrax, a 500 to 600 amp series controller was recommended for my cart (Alltrax SR-48500 or SR-48600). So I'm thinking that the AXE 300 amp controller you have might be a little small.

I too have considered lithium batteries for my cart but keep in mind that one of the limiting factors for our heavy work carts is the maximum continuous discharge rating of the lithium batteries. I have a Blue Sea volt / amp meter installed on my cart and my cart pulls some pretty heavy amps even when not loaded. I use our cart on our small farm on gravel roads and through pastures and it is fairly hilly. On top that, the cart is chained up for winter use which takes even more amps to get it around. Going slowly up a small hill takes at least 100 amps ... putting the pedal down on the same small hill you can hit 200 amps pretty easily. And slogging through snowy pastures your can hit 300 amps ... or more. These amperages are with Lead Acid batteries with a 240 amp-hr (20 hr) capacity rating.

If you size your lithium battery pack for a 250 amp maximum continuous discharge rate, you may find that size of a pack to be expensive or even prohibitively expensive. If you size your pack for only a 100 amp maximum continuous discharge rate, you would likely severely limit the performance capability of your cart.

You said: "I want a quiet cart for running around the property and neighborhood, and maybe campground/trails on vacation."

These Hawks are heavy work carts ... I have clocked a maximum speed of 17 mph on a flat section of gravel road but it is certainly not comfortable or sustainable at that speed. Most of my driving is more likely in the 5 mph range and occasionally maybe 10 mph ... these carts are not designed for high speed driving due to steering, suspension and brake limitations.

I hope this helps your with your trouble shooting and upgrade planning.

Regards, 3CW
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Old 01-23-2023, 08:10 AM   #8
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Default Re: 48V Lithium conversion questions

heres the rating of that 48340 controller... https://alltraxinc.com/axe-products/ The rated output for 2 minutes is higher than many of the lithium packs can offer as output for 2 minutes.. if you really need more than 135amps continuous your going to also want a very high amp hour battery because your going to be draining it fast. I think scotty is right in that when you take off loaded up with people, The cart is going to want to spike at higher than 300amps, you can certainly limit this as many people with navitas or alltrax and lithium have done so the bms doesnt go into a safety protection mode. if it were me id buy the batteries and test before doing anything. the controller might bbe fine for your use... and you might still want more.

Dont forget you should loose about 300lbs of battery weight when going lithium too...
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Old 01-23-2023, 08:22 AM   #9
DaveTM
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Default Re: 48V Lithium conversion questions

I’ve read the data from the Alltrax link. Seems the 48V can handle 300 amps continuously for 5 minutes.
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Old 01-23-2023, 11:29 AM   #10
ThreeCW
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Default Re: 48V Lithium conversion questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveTM View Post
I’ve read the data from the Alltrax link. Seems the 48V can handle 300 amps continuously for 5 minutes.
For his AXE4834P controller, the ratings (from the linked chart) are:
up to 2 minutes - 300 amps
5 minutes - 200 amps
1 hour - 135 amps

He certainly "might" be able to run with this controller (on paper anyways) ... if the controller is actually functional

If his controller is pooched and has to be replaced, I would certainly suggest upgrading to a higher amp rated controller for this heavy, work cart.

For my nearly identical cart, Alltrax suggested an SR 500 amp would work fine ... as would an SR 600 amp ... but the 600 amp might be overkill.

If the controller has to be replaced, I would certainly replace it with one with a built in cooling fan. I find my 600 amp Curtis tends to run hot and I live in a cool climate. With the Alltrax, a fan panel is included in the 500 and 600 amp models. In the lower amps models, the fan panel is optional.
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