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Old 10-19-2022, 04:33 PM   #11
Pat911
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Default Re: Eco Battery 105Ah 48V Lithium Golf Cart

I don’t think I’m being nieve and absolutely no offence taken. The US Commissioner for patents, Charles H. Duell famously said in 1899 (yes, eighteen ninety nine) “Everything that can be invented has been invented” Now that was nieve.

I’m being realistic. The EV mandates that are being legislated world wide are happening in the next 7-12 years. That’s not a lot if time in battery technology terms. Look at where lithium batteries were 5 years ago to where they are today….better, but not much different. As I already wrote, Lithium is the golden child when it comes to battery technology and there just isn’t enough of it to go around. There may be some other material that is discovered in the future but whatever it is, it won’t be ready for widespread, economical (read cheap) use in the timeframe specified.

Batteries of any chemistry have always been expensive, Lithium especially, don’t expect them to drop in price any time soon. That’s the point of my original statement.

Cheers
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Old 10-19-2022, 04:44 PM   #12
augiedoggy
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Default Re: Eco Battery 105Ah 48V Lithium Golf Cart

Well lifepo4 batteries were invented 1996 and they hit the lowest cost point in 2020... The thing is now there are tons of resellers and people assembling lifepo battery packs and reselling them at considerable markups. I built 280ah 12v lifepo4 cell for my camper this spring for about $550 with the cost of the bluetooth BMS... A person can easily build a 48v grade A 105ah lifepo4 48v pack right now for under $800 with a 250a bms and nothing but a screw driver, tape wire crimps and a wrench but the whole thing seems more complex than it is at first sight for many so they pay for pre assembled battery packs.
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Old 10-19-2022, 05:29 PM   #13
Pat911
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Default Re: Eco Battery 105Ah 48V Lithium Golf Cart

My point exactly Augiedoggy. I also build my own packs, purchasing raw cells and BMS’s from China and the cost of the cells has been going up, not down, contrary to JSsmith811 prediction in post #2. I was responding directly to his prediction.

It really is a supply and demand issue. With the supply of Lithium being the limiting factor. Don’t you think the manufacturers would churn out more batteries if they could. There is certainly a demand for them.

Cheers
Pat
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Old 11-01-2022, 08:22 AM   #14
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Default Re: Eco Battery 105Ah 48V Lithium Golf Cart

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Originally Posted by Pat911 View Post
My point exactly Augiedoggy. I also build my own packs, purchasing raw cells and BMS’s from China and the cost of the cells has been going up, not down, contrary to JSsmith811 prediction in post #2. I was responding directly to his prediction.

It really is a supply and demand issue. With the supply of Lithium being the limiting factor. Don’t you think the manufacturers would churn out more batteries if they could. There is certainly a demand for them.

Cheers
Pat
Have you read about the new sodium ion batteries on the horizon by chance? I'm guessing not.
They are mainly composed of salt.. They have a shorter lifespan (as of now) and weigh about 30% more so not as ideal for electric cars but still a better alternative for golf carts than FLA and they charge much faster than lithium ... estimated to be about 1/2 the cost of lifepo4 and expected to hit the market next year.
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Old 11-01-2022, 10:49 PM   #15
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Default Re: Eco Battery 105Ah 48V Lithium Golf Cart

Hi Augiedoggy,

Yes I have heard of them. Despite their inferiority to Lithium-ION batteries, they look promising but as you already mention, they are still in the lab and no company has yet produced a commercial product. Sodium-ION batteries are currently hindered by rapid dendrite formation which result in shorter life and internal cell short circuit. Recently, CATL has supposedly solved this problem but to what degree is unknown. Has it dropped 20%, 50%, 99% or is it now non-existent? It's unlikely to be non-existent as it is still hasn't been totally eliminated in Lithium-ION batteries. As for next year, let's wait and see, I hope so but I doubt it, not on a commercial scale anyhow since they are still in the lab solving problems.

Another benefit you didn't mention is no thermal runaway, so much safer than a lithium battery.

Getting back to the original statement, I think it unlikely that commercial release of Sodium-ION batteries will see the drop in price of Lithium-ION batteries as our vehicles, cell phones and other portable devices demand the smallest, lightest and most energy dense battery available.

Cheers
Pat.
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Old 11-02-2022, 06:10 AM   #16
Capt. Lenny
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Default Re: Eco Battery 105Ah 48V Lithium Golf Cart

I would love to build a pack from recycled automotive cells but don't know where to start. There are as many good videos on YouTube as there are bad. Don't know what cells and BMS are easiest to work with. I know Nissan Leaf cells have always been the popular choice but they're difficult to find. I started the thread https://buggiesgonewild.com/showthread.php?t=186691 and it got little response. I have knowledge of electricity and electrical but know nothing about Lithium so I want to be safe. Let's face it, building a pack for under $800 is quite appealing and I have time to do it while my FLA's are still good.
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Old 11-02-2022, 06:45 AM   #17
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Default Re: Eco Battery 105Ah 48V Lithium Golf Cart

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Originally Posted by Capt. Lenny View Post
I would love to build a pack from recycled automotive cells but don't know where to start. There are as many good videos on YouTube as there are bad. Don't know what cells and BMS are easiest to work with. I know Nissan Leaf cells have always been the popular choice but they're difficult to find. I started the thread https://buggiesgonewild.com/showthread.php?t=186691 and it got little response. I have knowledge of electricity and electrical but know nothing about Lithium so I want to be safe. Let's face it, building a pack for under $800 is quite appealing and I have time to do it while my FLA's are still good.
You are going to need both a cell and BMS that can handle the sustained and peak load a cart puts on them. It is doable as there are several members on here that have done it with the Leaf packs.

In the end its up to you if you want to risk the time and money and buying cells and a bms to have it fail if not done correctly or if you want to "Buy once cry once" and go with developed and tested system.
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Old 11-02-2022, 09:13 AM   #18
augiedoggy
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Default Re: Eco Battery 105Ah 48V Lithium Golf Cart

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Originally Posted by Pat911 View Post
Hi Augiedoggy,

Yes I have heard of them. Despite their inferiority to Lithium-ION batteries, they look promising but as you already mention, they are still in the lab and no company has yet produced a commercial product. Sodium-ION batteries are currently hindered by rapid dendrite formation which result in shorter life and internal cell short circuit. Recently, CATL has supposedly solved this problem but to what degree is unknown. Has it dropped 20%, 50%, 99% or is it now non-existent? It's unlikely to be non-existent as it is still hasn't been totally eliminated in Lithium-ION batteries. As for next year, let's wait and see, I hope so but I doubt it, not on a commercial scale anyhow since they are still in the lab solving problems.

Another benefit you didn't mention is no thermal runaway, so much safer than a lithium battery.

Getting back to the original statement, I think it unlikely that commercial release of Sodium-ION batteries will see the drop in price of Lithium-ION batteries as our vehicles, cell phones and other portable devices demand the smallest, lightest and most energy dense battery available.

Cheers
Pat.
You do mean lithium Iron not lithium ion correct? I mean I know you could use lithium ion here but why?
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Old 11-02-2022, 09:17 AM   #19
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Default Re: Eco Battery 105Ah 48V Lithium Golf Cart

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Originally Posted by Capt. Lenny View Post
I would love to build a pack from recycled automotive cells but don't know where to start. There are as many good videos on YouTube as there are bad. Don't know what cells and BMS are easiest to work with. I know Nissan Leaf cells have always been the popular choice but they're difficult to find. I started the thread https://buggiesgonewild.com/showthread.php?t=186691 and it got little response. I have knowledge of electricity and electrical but know nothing about Lithium so I want to be safe. Let's face it, building a pack for under $800 is quite appealing and I have time to do it while my FLA's are still good.
old lithium ion leaf cells are more volatile and inferior than going with new non automotive grade/grade b lifepo4 cells... lifepo4 also has a much longer lifespan. I am considering something like this for my 36v cart as ive already built a larger pack for my solar setup in my camper in which one 37lb battery in a single plastic rv battery holder outperforms the 6 6volt golf cart batteries it replaced (those 6 batteries are currently in my golf cart) https://www.aliexpress.us/item/32568...andl_shipto=US or in your case if you want 48v something like this.. https://www.aliexpress.us/item/32568...d=w2xSnxGPgxrI

you would want a bms like this https://www.aliexpress.us/item/32568...andl_shipto=US

there are lots of you tube videos showing you how to build/wire this up and in the end its not hard at all plus you have the added benefit of being able to replace a bad cell if you have an issue vs replacing the whole pack. I love the bluetooth monitoring app that the bms uses.. I have a 355w solar panel as a roof on my cart so for my application even the smaller 90ah cells would work great.

Ive bought cells from here myself and they are a more reputable dealer but the prices are higher.
https://www.docanpower.com/index.php...ath=59_60&fq=1

when it comes to aliexpress beware of scams and fake sellers.. I recently bought what was too good to be true and was refunded... the links above are legit however you may recieve slightly bloated cells that only put out 85% or so of thier advertised rating going by the research ive done in recent weeks.. the majority of buyers get the advertised rating though. lots of the lifepo4 cells being sold on the solar or diy market are b grade which means they didnt pass the testing for automotive use but they may still be fine and work great. they do all sorts of testing from x rays to different capacity tests and as well as cosmetic. many preassembled battery packs are also made with premium b grade cells
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Old 11-02-2022, 05:37 PM   #20
Pat911
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Default Re: Eco Battery 105Ah 48V Lithium Golf Cart

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Originally Posted by augiedoggy View Post
You do mean lithium Iron not lithium ion correct? I mean I know you could use lithium ion here but why?
No, it’s ION. No mistake was made. Ion and iron are two different things.

https://www.britannica.com/science/ion-physics

All batteries rely on the movement of Ions.

NMC batteries actually have no iron in them at all. As well as Lithium, they have Nickel (N), Manganese (M) and Cobalt (C). LiFePO4 do have iron in them, they have Lithium (Li) Iron (Fe) and Phosphate (PO4).
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