"The Water Buggy Project" looking for budget PM motor control options

[joelbert]

My buggy is a boat. I have a pontoon boat with an electric motor (no gas engines allowed on the lake). The motor is dead with a bad Sevcon 633T43813 controller. I can find a replacement Sevcon controller for around $550 but I would then need to spend almost that much on the cable to program it.

My existing controller specs decoded from the Sevcon model number are:
48v
300a
4 Quadrant permanent magnet control

After reading this thread https://buggiesgonewild.com/showthread.php?t=34083 I got a USB to serial cable, correct connector for the controller downloaded pcpak.rar file, and thought I had a budget programming solution, only to find I got the wrong software. Correct name but a completely unrelated package, I got a beam modulus calculator.

Trolling around BGW more I came across this thread https://buggiesgonewild.com/showthread.php?t=188959 and got all excited about a budget controller with software until I realized it wasn't a permanent magnet motor setup. I'm pretty sure mine is a PM motor, but I cannot find a name plate anywhere on it, but the controller implies it. After more reading, further down the rabbit hole, I found this page https://www.nocoev.com/product/Perma....htm#gsc.tab=0 showing the low cost controller being used for a PM setup. I think this is likely the solution I am going to pursue.

My current setup doesn't have reversing contactors, but a little ebay scavenging found a $50 solution with 100a capacity(600 amp breaking capacity). More searching on ebay found one of the knockoff motor controls 'new open box' for only $50 but a 60-72 volt unit. Uh-oh, the need for speed just met the need for cheap. I already have a 'spare' marine battery with the boat for the running lights etc. With the PC interface cable I should be able to dial back the output to keep from toasting the motor (hopefully not famous last words). I had been looking for a 'just a make it work again' solution, but more power and less money is hard to pass by.

Am I missing anything here? This really seems to be coming up a bunch cheaper than I was expecting. Is something going to come back and bite me in the wallet here?

Of course after even more trolling on BGW I realize the next step down the BGW rabbit hole will be a lithium solution for the wet buggy, that will probably allow me to take an extra passenger. Maybe that's the 'come back to bite me in the wallet' I was referring to.

I'm open to advice or ideas, or if anyone has any experience with any of the Sevcon repair places that have varying claims and offers? I'm leary of "send it to us and pay us $80, and then we'll tell you how much it will really cost".

Thanks,

[SolarRat]

Originally Posted by joelbert

...

Trolling around BGW more I came across this thread https://buggiesgonewild.com/showthread.php?t=188959 and got all excited about a budget controller with software until I realized it wasn't a permanent magnet motor setup. I'm pretty sure mine is a PM motor, but I cannot find a name plate anywhere on it, but the controller implies it. After more reading, further down the rabbit hole, I found this page https://www.nocoev.com/product/Perma....htm#gsc.tab=0 showing the low cost controller being used for a PM setup. I think this is likely the solution I am going to pursue.

I'm pretty sure your first link is just a clone of the controller in your second link? The 4 Quadrant controller just means it has reverse built into the controller so reversing contactors aren't needed. The big question is is your motor brushed or brushless...the controllers are not interchangeable for the two styles.

Most older carts have brushed series motors. I don't see why a regular PWM controller won't work on them, but a you'll need a special 3 phase controller for brushless motors. A brushed series motor has 4 big power/field cables, but I don't see why a two wire PWM controller won't work with the correct wiring. A brushless DC motor is basically a 3 phase AC motor, and has three cables supplying power...a whole 'nother animal. I doubt your boat motor is a series motor, but if it's newer it may be brushless.

I use a cheap $20 PWM controller to replace the usually failed Minn Kota brushed controllers, but they are only good for ~50 amps. Works well with my 36v 112lb thrust trolling motor and my smaller ones too. Sounds like your motor is too big for one of these though. An old school PM magnet motor is about as simple as it gets, usually it only has a positive and a negative terminal...put in 48v and it will go forward, or reverse the wires (with the reversing contactors) to go backwards. A PWM controller just chops the power (pulse with modulation) to change speeds.

[SolarRat]

What motor is on your pontoon? I had a 50hp EFI 4 stroke on the back of mine with the 36v modified troller on the front. I sold the gas motor last year and was working on finding a big electric for the back, but they are hard to find for a reasonable price. I was planning on making my own with a brushless motor, huge lithium battery and 2000w of solar on the roof...but Hurricane Ian destroyed the boat before I got the chance.

I only got about 4mph max with the 36v troller running at about 34 amps, or 1200w. I'm looking for at least a 6mph cruise with maybe 8mph max to canal cruise. Curious what kind of numbers yours can do? You say your controller was 48v, 300amp, so It should be capable of running at least a 10kw motor? I figured a 5kw motor would get me the 6mph I want...

[augiedoggy]

Originally Posted by SolarRat

I'm pretty sure your first link is just a clone of the controller in your second link? The 4 Quadrant controller just means it has reverse built into the controller so reversing contactors aren't needed. The big question is is your motor brushed or brushless...the controllers are not interchangeable for the two styles.

Most older carts have brushed series motors. I don't see why a regular PWM controller won't work on them, but a you'll need a special 3 phase controller for brushless motors. A brushed series motor has 4 big power/field cables, but I don't see why a two wire PWM controller won't work with the correct wiring. A brushless DC motor is basically a 3 phase AC motor, and has three cables supplying power...a whole 'nother animal. I doubt your boat motor is a series motor, but if it's newer it may be brushless.

I use a cheap $20 PWM controller to replace the usually failed Minn Kota brushed controllers, but they are only good for ~50 amps. Works well with my 36v 112lb thrust trolling motor and my smaller ones too. Sounds like your motor is too big for one of these though. An old school PM magnet motor is about as simple as it gets, usually it only has a positive and a negative terminal...put in 48v and it will go forward, or reverse the wires (with the reversing contactors) to go backwards. A PWM controller just chops the power (pulse with modulation) to change speeds.

They are both chinese "clones" at this point. From what ive read, Curtis no longer deals with the chinese manufacturer they were using to make them so they may consider them all clones and not honor any type of support but thats something to ask the supplier. The company that used to make them for curtis (along with other clone companies) just continued to make them after Curtis severed their agreement.

Its likely this controller,
https://www.ebay.com/itm/18580564302...torefresh=true

As far as different motors I do know they do work for the plug braking motors (Regen) but I believe you need to set them up.I programmed mine to use the j5 connection for reverse and to limit my reverse speed to 50% but I have a series motor. I also set mine to go 15% over the max rating momentarily. This makes it behave as a 575amp controller. My alltrax had the same feature.

[joelbert]

Originally Posted by SolarRat

I'm pretty sure your first link is just a clone of the controller in your second link? The 4 Quadrant controller just means it has reverse built into the controller so reversing contactors aren't needed. The big question is is your motor brushed or brushless...the controllers are not interchangeable for the two styles.
.

Yes both links are the same controller. The second just showed me how to wire it.

My motor has brushes. I am pretty sure it is a PM motor. Photos with the rear cover removed so you can see the brushes. The motor is about 8" diameter, and about 5" long. The way it is mounted I think I could swap in a longer motor of the same diameter when the need for speed gets to me.

My motor is a Ray Electric outboard. They claim the current 48V setup is the equivalent of a 16 hp outboard.

[joelbert]

Originally Posted by SolarRat

I use a cheap $20 PWM controller to replace the usually failed Minn Kota brushed controllers, but they are only good for ~50 amps. Works well with my 36v 112lb thrust trolling motor and my smaller ones too. Sounds like your motor is too big for one of these though. An old school PM magnet motor is about as simple as it gets, usually it only has a positive and a negative terminal...put in 48v and it will go forward, or reverse the wires (with the reversing contactors) to go backwards. A PWM controller just chops the power (pulse with modulation) to change speeds.

The boat came with a minn-kota 48V with a blown controller. What PWM contrller are using for the replacement? How straight forward was it? Once I get the Ray motor fixed I might try to get the Minn kota going again.

[sleeplesstwo]

I have a Navitas TPM400-48I that I have had sitting on a shelf for a project that never happened. Let me know if your interested.

https://www.navitasvs.com/tpm

https://www.navitasvs.com/_files/ugd...28120df28b.pdf

[SolarRat]

Originally Posted by joelbert

The boat came with a minn-kota 48V with a blown controller. What PWM contrller are using for the replacement? How straight forward was it? Once I get the Ray motor fixed I might try to get the Minn kota going again.

I use one of these for my 36v MK and a 48v scooter. I've used them for 12 and 24v trollers in the past, never blew one up, but I did have a fan on it in an enclosure on the boat. I tried to never bring it past 40 amps for long periods.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/32557838861...Bk9SR5q0oInwYQ

For some reason I don't see any new ones for sale on ebay or Amazon, so I hope they didn't discontinue it. There are many similar controllers with built in reverse relays, but I haven't had as much luck with them (they have half the amount of mosfets and are probably overrated). The controoler above doesn't have reverse, so you'd need to add your own reversing relays/solenoids. My bow mounted MK spins 360 degrees for reverse anyway.

One of these would be a cheap way to test your Ray's motor, but I wouldn't bring it past 45 amps with a fan (your motor says it's 90a max, or 4500w...probably a little overrated by the manufacturer).

I assume your MinnKota is an E-drive? They only draw 40 amps/2000w max which is less than what my 36v MK draws, so it should work well.

[SolarRat]

I mounted the speed control under the console and wired it up to this panel. The knob controls the speed and the toggle switch powers the left/right steering motor (not through the controller). The display is hooked to a shunt to measure the load and give me a clear idea of battery capacity remaining.