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Old 08-06-2022, 02:03 PM   #31
The Spoon
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Default Re: Uno Batteries

Not my opinion, just a Google search result.

Found at maxworldpower.com (LFP VS NMC): (I can't post the link, because I'm a newbie here)


LFP Vs NMC: Energy density
The energy densities of NMC batteries are higher than that of LFP batteries at this stage, which means that the performance of NMC batteries is better than that of LFP batteries as the power batteries. High energy density means better acceleration performance. However, the LFP battery is superior to the NMC battery in energy storage. In simple terms, NMC batteries have good performance but poor battery life, and LFP batteries have poor performance but good battery life.



My Primary concern is Safety, so this caught my eye:

LFP Vs NMC: Security
In terms of safety, the LFP battery is generally superior to the NCM battery. The chemical properties and structural framework of the LFP cell itself are very stable. Even if it is penetrated, squeezed hard, and thrown from a high altitude, it will not catch fire or explode, but smoke at best. On the contrary, the safety of NMC batteries is much worse, especially under abnormally high temperatures, the possibility of fire and explosion is relatively large, which is also one of the reasons for the criticism of NMC batteries.

The winner is LFP

The safety of an LFP battery is one of its main advantages. At higher temperatures, lithium iron phosphate is a more stable alloy than nickel manganese cobalt.

Additionally, LFP batteries are better able to manage higher power pulls. LFP batteries are less susceptible to thermal runaway as a result. LFP batteries are less prone to catch fire than NMC batteries, to put it briefly.

IMO, that last characteristic alone would disqualify ANY Cobalt battery from recharging or even just sitting in my garage, much less riding a foot under me over any kind of terrain.
Having seen a couple of Tesla Model X's burn to the ground while the Fire Department helplessly looked on is enough to convince me a performance advantage (if any) is not worth the risk. The shorter life-span of NMC is also troubling.
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Old 08-06-2022, 10:19 PM   #32
Pat911
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Default Re: Uno Batteries

Hi Spoon,

In a cart, energy density really doesnít factor in to the discussion as both NMC and LiFePO4 are far more energy dense than the lead acid batteries they are replacing. The difference between the two is insignificant compared to the difference to LA.

Quote:
High energy density means better acceleration performance.
Not really true. Higher energy density means more stored energy for a given weight/size. Given the energy density difference between NMC and LiFePO4, and factoring in the weight of the cart and passengers, you wonít see much, if any performance difference between the two. You will see a difference when going from LA to any lithium chemistry due to the much less weight, but also the ability of lithium batteries to supply a much higher current under load with less voltage sag than LA.

NMC has the edge over LiFePO4 when it comes to high current discharge but LiFePO4 is catching up with 3C, 5C and even higher continuous current cells becoming available.

What you say about safety is valid, but when used within its limits, NMC is safe. The billions of cells currently in use in our every day life (phones/tablets, cordless power tools, laptop computers etc.) attest to this. Having said that, I would never trust a NMC cell that has been discharged below 2.5v. Puncturing is a concern but not really an issue in cart batteries with an adequate enclosure, and fire usually wonít occur when youíre sitting on the seat. If thereís an issue, fire will occur at recharge time, or if punctured of course.

And yes, a lithium fire cannot be extinguished. The only thing you can do is try to protect any surrounding property or equipment and watch it burn until it extinguishes itself. It will burn very hot!

There are other pluses and minuses to the NMC/LiFePO4 debate, but thatís enough for now.

Cheers
Pat.
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Old Yesterday, 07:44 PM   #33
Volt_Ampere
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Default Re: Uno Batteries

Internal resistance is much more important than energy density when it comes to acceleration (current) capability. And NMC tend to have lower internal resistance. Electric vehicles tend to use NMC - not 100% but mostly. Some of the LiFePO4 cells are really not rated for the current draw that we need for good cart performance. You will see several folks in this forum with issues of the batteries "cutting out" under acceleration. This is because the BMS is set to limit the current draw.
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