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Big Block Talk! Everything about swapping a big block engine into your cart!



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Old 12-18-2021, 12:39 PM   #1
slonomo
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Default The Right Combo

Another thread inspired me to post this. Just my thinking of how vehicles and engines work together. Golf carts are no different here....

First up: Big Heavy Vehicle with Small HP Engine

What you usually end up with is a vehicle that will run, drive, but that's about it. Once you load up with people or gear, it usually struggles to accelerate and pull it's own weight. Add an incline, or worse, a hill.....it's near impossible to keep moving forward without struggle.

What can fix this? Gearing and secondary clutch work
Change to a higher gear ratio (example 4:10 in a car/truck or 13:1 in a golf cart). This effectively lets the engine enter it's "powerband", the point where the torque and hp meet at their peaks. Basically lets the engine work in it's hot spot and turn the wheels. The clutch work can help keep the engine in "low gear" longer and delays upshift, allowing the cart to keep moving forward.

Upside?
Pulling power and a better ability to accelerate

Downside?
Lower top speed, and engine will cruise at a higher rpm which uses more fuel and puts more stress on the engine.

Automotive Example:
Dodge Dakota 4 cylinder
Chevy Caprice 6 cylinder

Example:
1984 Yamaha G1
2 stroke 215cc engine liked to rev but only made around 7-8hp. Without a load this cart would cruise easily and could pull medium sized hills. At 600 lbs this cart was heavy. Add a 200 lb passenger and it becomes a dog. Add some gear or two passengers on the rear.....it gets ugly. Some will simply add the hd clutch spring in the driven clutch and it helps out quite a bit, if it's the correct spring. Some hd clutch springs are too stiff and can damage the clutch.

Example:
1997 EZGO TXT 295 Robin engine
This was nearly the same cart/engine combo until 2010 I believe? Same scenario. Heavy cart with a low reving low hp engine, about 9 hp. Top speed stock would be around 15-19mph. Add a load and it would struggle to get up to speed, and might crawl up a hill if the secondary clutch was changed to the "workhorse" model.
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Old 12-18-2021, 12:54 PM   #2
slonomo
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Default Re: The Right Combo

Next up: Light Vehicle with High HP Engine

What you end up with here is a quick accelerating vehicle that might struggle to get traction, or might even wheelie. Fun some might say, right? If that's all you want to do, yes, very fun. Add some weight and it becomes a better mannered vehicle and will even gain traction. When you try and pull a loaded trailer or something similar, you'll find that the wheels will spin very easily.

What can fix this?
Tuning can tune down the engine's power, but what's the fun in that. A throttle cable bell crank device can slow the travel of the accelerator pedal, making it easier to run the engine at a slower rpm. Better tires can increase traction. Better suspension can help high speed handling and better weight transfer for better steering control when accelerating.

Upside? Speed and Acceleration
This combo will definitely accelerate easily. With no added weight the power to weight ratio is very good and the engine has very little load on it. It will also deliver a good "seat of the pants" feel. Very fun to drive if you are an adrenaline junky type.

Downside? Drive-ability, Noise, Traction
For the other people in your family that don't appreciate adrenaline style driving, this combo might be less appealing. My wife, for example, likes slow carts. She won't even drive one with a loud Vtwin. Throttle might be touchy. Might be too easy to go fast, and not easy to go slow. Noise will also be more for a souped up Vtwin compared to the stock engine. Even with the best muffler, you can't get away from more noise. Traction in gravel, grass, snow etc will be difficult because of the added power.

Automotive Examples:
Ford Mustang
Chevy Camaro

Example:
1990 Club Car with a built Vtwin engine that revs to 5500 rpm. Yep, she'll fly! These carts have a very strange and archaic front suspension design that doesn't work well with the added power. Aftermarket suspension, tires, and brakes are a must to keep this cart safe.

Example:
2000 EZGO TXT with a built Vtwin. Same scenario as the club car. These carts are a little heavier, but still have an archaic front suspension, so handling is still hampered. The ability to rev high so top speed is still good and a little sketchy under full throttle. It's a little heavier than the Club Car so it might feel less out of control, but compared to stock though, this cart will fly! Top speed without the engine governor with a rev kit will be around 35 miles per hour or more, and it will get there in a matter of seconds. Will easily peel gravel and grass when the hammer is down. On hard surfaces it's not unheard of to pull the front wheels off the ground from a dead stop.
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Old 12-18-2021, 12:56 PM   #3
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Default Re: The Right Combo

Finally, The Right Combo

Here you have a medium weight vehicle with a big displacement engine that develops a lot of torque. This will give you the best of both worlds. When the load is light, it will transfer weight and get traction and still accelerate briskly. When you load this vehicle up, it still has the torque to pull the vehicle nicely. A properly tuned/built engine will have an equal balance of HP and Torque, with torque coming to a peak low in the rpm range. HP that peaks higher in the rpm range will enable the vehicle to keep the speed up while pulling a load. Under full throttle, power and torque should be matched so that you don't break traction, or maybe just barely a little wheel spin. The goal is to putt 100% of the available power to the ground. Added weight makes ride quality better and handling not as twitchy.

Upside: Control, Ride, Handling
Good control and handling makes these vehicles easier to drive under most circumstances. Ride is usually good quality, but suspension upgrades always help. Basically the vehicle is well balanced in all aspects of operation.

Downside: Limited
This vehicle does have it's limits. It's not as fast as some, and doesn't offer the adrenaline junky a fix. You will find its limits on and off road in extreme situations.

Automotive Example:
Ford F150 2.7 Ecoboost
Toyota Avalon 6 cylinder

Example:
2004 EZGO Workhorse with a 16hp Briggs Vtwin in stock form. Upgraded suspension like and LT front end with disc brakes make this cart very capable on and off road. It's capable of hauling firewood and a beer cooler, or wife, kids, and dog to the other side of the neighborhood. This cart will out accelerate most stock carts and also outwork them, while still being able to be driven by the whole family and get the work done.

Example:
2000 Yamaha G16 with a Predator 420 with cam and rev kit. Add a suspension kit and tires, and a convertible back seat and you have a quick little neighborhood cruiser that you can haul flowers to the backyard and load up 4 bags of mulch on. With a good muffler you can still drive this one at most campgrounds if you have lights and a windshield. Street legal is even an option with seatbelts and turn signals etc. The power and acceleration is good, but not scary.
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Old 12-18-2021, 01:19 PM   #4
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Default Re: The Right Combo

If you've read this far, I'm sure you have things you agree with, and maybe disagree with. Please feel free to share your thoughts on the "The Right Combo" for you. Enjoy
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Old 01-16-2022, 01:29 PM   #5
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Default Re: The Right Combo

ok I'll give a try: The right combo for me is a honda gas 390 clone, specifically a Duromax 440 for the engine. Stock gearing is not right so I've played with the clutch`s some. Replaced the comet 780 with a clone that engages faster and removed the high torque secondary with a 36* clocked to shift faster. Top speed with 25" rears is 31mph gps.
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Old 01-17-2022, 07:03 PM   #6
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Default Re: The Right Combo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notsoezgo View Post
ok I'll give a try: The right combo for me is a honda gas 390 clone, specifically a Duromax 440 for the engine. Stock gearing is not right so I've played with the clutch`s some. Replaced the comet 780 with a clone that engages faster and removed the high torque secondary with a 36* clocked to shift faster. Top speed with 25" rears is 31mph gps.
Sounds like you've got that thing dialed in pretty good. I like the clones, the Duromax seems to be one of the better ones. I really like the clones in stock form mostly because they are easy to operate and are not really noisy. With good clutches I bet that thing scoots!
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Old 01-17-2022, 08:39 PM   #7
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Default Re: The Right Combo

good read....as with any thing mechanical its good advice to find its intended use and pick the parts for that type of build......
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Old 01-20-2022, 04:42 PM   #8
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Default Re: The Right Combo

Good thread! I think you are pretty accurate! Ultimately it depends on how the cart is used and the owner.

I have a stock 16hp Vanguard with a rev kit in my Terrain 1500. I personally feel it is a bit underpowered, but I have to remember at the end of the day it is a golf cart. I am currently building a 18hp motor (long rods, flat top pistons, cam, 23hp heads, exhaust, 36mm carb) that should make good power, so I will have to chime in when I get it finished up. At that point I doubt it would be kid friendly unless there was some type of governor.
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Old 01-21-2022, 10:24 AM   #9
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Default Re: The Right Combo

Quote:
Originally Posted by blaster3500 View Post
Good thread! I think you are pretty accurate! Ultimately it depends on how the cart is used and the owner.

I have a stock 16hp Vanguard with a rev kit in my Terrain 1500. I personally feel it is a bit underpowered, but I have to remember at the end of the day it is a golf cart. I am currently building a 18hp motor (long rods, flat top pistons, cam, 23hp heads, exhaust, 36mm carb) that should make good power, so I will have to chime in when I get it finished up. At that point I doubt it would be kid friendly unless there was some type of governor.
Thanks!

That build sounds amazing! Can't wait to see it, post up some pics, you know we love pics. I agree, there's a point where the power no longer makes it to the ground, like loss of traction. At that point the traction needs to be controlled by the driver, that's where skill comes in. Most people don't have the skills to drive a high performance machine. While a high powered machine is definitely my type of rig, it's not for the rest of my family. So intended user/driver is a big factor here.

Question: you said you feel the 16 hp Vanguard feels underpowered, is that just a "feel" analysis or have you needed more power for something and didn't have enough, like pulling something?

My G1 with the 16hp Vanguard actually pulled my Toyota Tundra uphill in my driveway, and that truck weighs 5500 lbs. It was just for fun, so we hooked up a tow strap and it pulled it over 50 feet and then I said enough. That same G1 climbed a hill in Southern Ohio that was so steep it was unwalkable. Neither of these feats were fast, very slow by the way. But, power to get the job done? Yep it had it.
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Old 01-22-2022, 04:27 PM   #10
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Default Re: The Right Combo

Quote:
Originally Posted by slonomo View Post
Thanks!

That build sounds amazing! Can't wait to see it, post up some pics, you know we love pics. I agree, there's a point where the power no longer makes it to the ground, like loss of traction. At that point the traction needs to be controlled by the driver, that's where skill comes in. Most people don't have the skills to drive a high performance machine. While a high powered machine is definitely my type of rig, it's not for the rest of my family. So intended user/driver is a big factor here.

Question: you said you feel the 16 hp Vanguard feels underpowered, is that just a "feel" analysis or have you needed more power for something and didn't have enough, like pulling something?

My G1 with the 16hp Vanguard actually pulled my Toyota Tundra uphill in my driveway, and that truck weighs 5500 lbs. It was just for fun, so we hooked up a tow strap and it pulled it over 50 feet and then I said enough. That same G1 climbed a hill in Southern Ohio that was so steep it was unwalkable. Neither of these feats were fast, very slow by the way. But, power to get the job done? Yep it had it.
I will have to start a thread for the engine build. I hope it runs well! Right now it's just a pile of parts. I am sending of my pistons and heads to get machined. After that I can start assembly.

Definitely just a feel. It has plenty of power, especially for non paved surfaces. I have never ran into a situation where it "needed" more power. I do a lot of road riding so am going to install 8:1 gears. Starting out my goal was to have the same torque as the stock gears and motor. At this point hopefully it will have more. I have an issue modding pretty much everything I own .
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