Two 23 HP Vanguards and a cold start issue

[army]

I have two 23 HP Vanguards. One has about 600 hours on it and the other one about 200 hours. They're in JD garden tractors not carts so I'll stick to talking about the engines only unless it's necessary to explain something, like the fact that I bought the the JD's about a week apart with the VG's already installed (so you could say I'm twice as much of a newbie to VG engines). I'm asking about them here because you guys seem to have a lot of experience with VG's.

I mentioned in another thread here that both engines take 10-15 seconds to start and run. They both had stock vacuum pumps when I got them but I put a 12V pump on one of them instead. Made no difference at all. Once they start they run fine and will re-fire immediately until they've been sitting for a while. One of them lopes a bit at 2/3 throttle after it's warmed up but nothing serious.


This pic shows the fuel line shut off and filter in different locations than what they are now. I replaced the entire fuel line when I added the 12V pump and removed the vacuum pump and re-located the shutoff to about 6" from the carb inlet. The filter is back along the line about a foot from the shutoff now.


After I installed the electric pump I shut the fuel off after running the engine in the afternoon. Then the next morning I turned the key to ON for a minute to make sure the fuel line was full of gas, then I opened the shutoff and tried to start it. Didn't help at all. It still took about a dozen seconds of cranking to start running.

I have antique tractors and vehicles and they all have their own quirkiness with their choke and throttle settings for cold starts. I've tried various combos with the VG's and determined they have to be spun over at full choke and about half throttle for 10-15 seconds to fire up. One of them requires the choke to be immediately pushed in halfway and the throttle pulled back to almost an idle or it will quit. The other one will keep running but also needs the choke and throttle adjusted fairly quickly.

Both engines will fire up immediately if I squirt some gas in the carb so I believe it's a fuel delivery issue. I'm wondering if the anti-dieseling fuel solenoid is causing it ..somehow. But since I turn the key on for a bit on the 12V pump equipped engine before trying to start it the solenoid should be open again

Any insight you guys have is more welcome. If I haven't explained something very well just say so.

[Dave in VA]

I don't believe that you have a problem. My 23 Vanguard was the same way and I considered it normal. No issues after the initial start. I bought the engine new.

[TheNewGuy]

Originally Posted by Dave in VA

I don't believe that you have a problem. My 23 Vanguard was the same way and I considered it normal. No issues after the initial start. I bought the engine new.

I agree, mine was the same, also bought new.

[slonomo]

Originally Posted by Dave in VA

I don't believe that you have a problem. My 23 Vanguard was the same way and I considered it normal. No issues after the initial start. I bought the engine new.

Originally Posted by TheNewGuy

I agree, mine was the same, also bought new.

This is one of the reasons I decided to upgrade the carb on the 23. Seems to be a 2 barrel carb issue. I had the same thing going on and couldn't get it adjusted out. One thing I did not try was larger pilot jets. Might be something to try since it does better with the choke on?

One thing to note, when I was using either version of the Mikuni carbs (42mm CV, and 34mm VM) the starting was effortless, and I mean instant. It didn't matter if it was hot, cold, rainy, or if it sat overnight or for a week. It started instantly and idled fantastic with these carbs.

As a comparison....all 3 of the 16 Vanguards I've used started instantly with no long cranking ever.

[army]

Well I don't like the way they start so for me it actually is a problem. A fly in the ointment so to speak. The engines generally do what they're supposed to but I'd like to eliminate the long cranking time if possible. I'd rate the aggravation factor about $50. If it's more than that I'll likely put it on my ignore list.

[army]

Is that a spendy option Slonomo?

Originally Posted by slonomo

This is one of the reasons I decided to upgrade the carb on the 23. Seems to be a 2 barrel carb issue. I had the same thing going on and couldn't get it adjusted out. One thing I did not try was larger pilot jets. Might be something to try since it does better with the choke on?

One thing to note, when I was using either version of the Mikuni carbs (42mm CV, and 34mm VM) the starting was effortless, and I mean instant. It didn't matter if it was hot, cold, rainy, or if it sat overnight or for a week. It started instantly and idled fantastic with these carbs.

As a comparison....all 3 of the 16 Vanguards I've used started instantly with no long cranking ever.

[slonomo]

Originally Posted by army

Is that a spendy option Slonomo?

It's not cheap, but it depends on your idea of "spendy". It also makes for a clearance issue on top if the engine compartment is tight. But I'll tell ya, a 30mm carb would be plenty, even a 28mm. The larger sizes allow the engine run at higher rpm. If I was to do it again, I'd go with a 28mm. The carb itself is not too bad, but the intake manifold adapter is.

The throttle hookup is a little tricky but not difficult. I ended up making a bell crank linkage for mine and it worked well.

[army]

Thanks Slo.. I was mainly curious if there was a cheap and easy fix. Apparently not though.

[army]

Originally Posted by Dave in VA

I don't believe that you have a problem. My 23 Vanguard was the same way and I considered it normal. No issues after the initial start. I bought the engine new.

Did it have a vacuum pump or electric Dave?

[Dave in VA]

Originally Posted by army

Did it have a vacuum pump or electric Dave?

The OEM pump that came with the engine.